http://brilliantgameologists.com
May 19, 2013, 12:05:34 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: These boards are now READ ONLY. We've started over! So don't try posting here. Go here www.minmaxboards.com
 
   Home   Help Search Members Login Register  
Pages: 1
  Print  
Author Topic: Modified Spell Point System  (Read 711 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 7139



« on: March 20, 2009, 08:03:35 AM »

For a while, I've been toying around with what I'd do to get rid of the Vancian system.  I tried UA's spell point system out two years ago.  I liked it, but it has some issues.  I tried making my own spell point system, but it turned out needlessly compelx.  I'm running a wizard in a game with recharge magic right now.  It's fun, but I don't think it's the route I want to go with my future games.  Then I had an idea to try to get the "best of both worlds" (hopefully Tongue).

Spell Points
This system will use the framework of the Unearthed Arcana's Spell Points system, with the following changes:

Two totals
This is the biggest change.  First, calculate your total SP for each class, including bonus spell points from a high ability score.  Divide this number by two.  Half, round up goes into one total, and the other half (round down) goes into the second total.  I'm not sure what I want to call these two pools yet, but I'm thinking something along the lines of Spell Points (SP) for the first pool and Concentration Points (CP) for the second half.

The idea is that your SP represent your immediate casting power, similar to SP in the old system.  CP represent more of your inner strength; something you tap into when you really need it.

In game terms, when you cast a spell, you first deduct from your SP total.  If you run out of SP, you can continue casting, deducting from your CP total.  Note that it is possible to split a cost between both totals (ex: If you cast a 5th level spell for 9 SP, but you only have 3 SP remaining, you would spend 3 SP, and the remaining 6 comes from your CP total).

This difference matters for how you regain your SP and CP.  SP come back naturally after one hour.  You can speed this up by meditating/praying/studying for ten uninterrupted minutes.  Your CP, however, will only come back after eight hours of uninterrupted rest.

Free augmentation
Direct damage spells scale with level for free.  You do not have to pay extra spell points to increase the damage.

Free zero level spells
Zero level spells are always free, rather than a set amount being free for a day.

Vitalizing variant (Optional)
Similar to the UA version, this variant introduces fatigue from casting too much.  Spending SP works as normal, without taxing the caster too much.  Spending CP is much more strenuous.  Anytime a caster draws from his CP, he becomes fatigued, although doing so a second time will not automatically increase the fatigue to exhaustion.  Anytime a caster casts a spell that reduces his CP below half it's total, he becomes exhausted.  These statuses can be lessened or removed by normal means (such as Lesser Restoration), but they will return again if the caster casts another spell that draws from his CP.

The fatigue and exhuastion take effect immediately after the spell is cast.  So, for example, if a cleric who is already fatigued casts Lesser Restoration on himself while drawing from his CP, the spell will remove his fatigue, and then he will become fatigued again immediately thereafter.


Analysis
I haven't had a chance to play-test this yet.  It's just an idea I've had bouncing around for about a week that I wanted to commit to writing.

I'm hoping the two totals will be a good balance of blending a per-encounter system with a per-day system.  I wanted to keep some level of resource management there, but I also like the idea of the caster getting some of their juice back after some time.

I was torn how to handle the auto-augmenting of direct damage spells.  I see why it was included in the first place (Why cast a 9d6 Cone of Cold for 9 SP when you can cast a 9d6 Fireball for 5?), but this penalized an already weak form of magic.  Suddenly, you're spending double the SP of a given spell, when you could cast a better spell for half the cost to more effect!  So, I'm hoping I've picked the lesser of two evils.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 08:09:24 AM by RobbyPants » Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
Prime32
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
*
Posts: 7534


Modding since 03/12/10


« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2009, 08:12:13 AM »

Seems good.

What about a way for casters to tap into their CP while they still have SP? They become fatigued, but also receive some boost (like +1 CL).


EDIT: Let's say... "When casting a spell from SP, you may also expend 1 CP per five caster levels. The spell's caster level and DC are increased by 1 for each CP, but you also become fatigued."
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 08:19:52 AM by Prime32 » Logged

My work
DeviantArt
Current games
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 7139



« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2009, 08:35:00 AM »

That's an option.  I'm always worried about doing stuff like that, because, as a general rule, I'm not very good at breaking things.  I tend to miss how those things are abusive.  Off the top of my head it doesn't seem too bad.

Also, another thing I should add is Reserve Feats.  I was thinking that your feat would work given two criteria:

1) You have the spell prepared (if applicable)

2) You have enough SP (not CP) available to cover the cost.

I think that would be a close approximation.
Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
veekie
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 9034


WARNING: Homing Miko


« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2009, 03:46:09 PM »

Heh, I like the idea, though the little notes I had scribbled on ideas for a similar system contained a 3rd category of points which refreshed each round, basically 4e style, but with a lot more variety in power per character. There was a lot of reactive defense stuff in it, on the basis that someone could spend the /round points on offense, or spare something for defense, and then there was some stuff that requires a maintainenance cost...

I think I stopped work on it when my homework came in 2 semesters back, time to cast Raise Dead on the thing. If I can still find where I left all my scribblies.

Now, as for direct damage spells, I think for the point cost, more targets and better special effects should be the norm for a higher level DD spell. And if you want to go the whole hog, you could fold spell chains like Summon Monster, Cure, Vigor, Charm/Dominate, into single, augmentable spells. It's one of the things I liked the most with psionics.
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 7139



« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2009, 07:01:14 PM »

Well, if I were to do this right I'd have to rewrite all the spells to work like psionics.  I've thought about doing that, but I simply just don't have the time right now.

Also, I think a system like this could work quite well for psionics too.
Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 7139



« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2009, 08:39:53 PM »

Something else I might want to add to this:

If you cast a spell with a duration other than instantaneous, you cannot get those SP back until after the duration elapses.  You can volunterily dismiss the spell to free up the SP again (although they don't come back until one hour or after 10 minutes of meditation/prayer).  If you use CP to cast the spell, you are prevented from gaining SP, not CP.

For example: A caster has 10 SP and 10 CP*.  Now, he casts Bull's Strength for 3 SP.  He now has 7/10 SP and 10/10 CP, and those 3 SP cannot come back until Bull's Strength is done.  Lets say he casts two Fireballs, dropping him to 0/10 SP and 7/10 CP.  Now, if he casts Mage Armor for 1 CP, he is at 0/10 SP and 6/10 CP; however, when he later meditates, he only gains back six SP instead of seven, because the one point from Mage Armor counts against SP (despite having used CP to cast it).  Of course, he can always dismiss the buffs to free up those four SP.  Also, with a duration of one minute per caster level, Bull's Strength probably won't last so long as to be a big problem anyway.

This might get a bit complicated...

This would keep a caster from casting a long-duration buff, meditating for ten minutes, and then getting the SP back while the buff is still active.  Now, it's only one or the other.  Thoughts?


* I just made these numbers up and didn't check any tables, before that causes any confusion. Wink
Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
Soda
Bi-Curious George
****
Posts: 484


« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2009, 09:06:22 PM »

I like it. I think possibly spell points should only be 1/4. That or regaining them always take the whole hour.
Logged
RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 7139



« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2009, 04:52:42 PM »

You mean 1/4 SP and 3/4 CP?

I admit I haven't really looked over the Unearthed Arcana SP charts level by level to see what casters will have available; this is just a rough draft.  I can see where 1/4 might be better, as it forces casters to spread out their resources a bit, but it gives them a larger pool to dip into if they get desparate.
Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
Soda
Bi-Curious George
****
Posts: 484


« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2009, 04:55:50 PM »

You mean 1/4 SP and 3/4 CP?

I admit I haven't really looked over the Unearthed Arcana SP charts level by level to see what casters will have available; this is just a rough draft.  I can see where 1/4 might be better, as it forces casters to spread out their resources a bit, but it gives them a larger pool to dip into if they get desparate.
Ya. Spell points already give you more high level spells/day. Getting half of them back every encounter might be overkill.
Logged
RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 7139



« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2009, 01:53:28 PM »

Just for reference, here's what the SP and CP tables would look like using the 1/4 and 3/4 split suggested by Soda.  There's no bonus SP factored in at this point.  I think I like it.

SP
Level   Bard    Cleric,   Ranger,    Sorcerer
                Druid,    Paladin
                Wizard   

_____________________________________________   
1st     0       1         0          1
2nd     0       1         0          2
3rd     1       2         0          2
4th     2       3         0          4
5th     2       4         0          5
6th     3       6         1          8
7th     4       9         1          10
8th     5       11        1          13
9th     6       14        1          16
10th    8       18        1          21
11th    9       22        1          25
12th    11      26        3          29
13th    13      30        3          33
14th    15      34        3          38
15th    17      38        5          42
16th    21      42        5          46
17th    24      46        7          50
18th    29      50        7          55
19th    34      54        11         59
20th    36      58        12         63

CP
Level   Bard    Cleric,   Ranger,    Sorcerer
                Druid,    Paladin
                Wizard      

_____________________________________________
1st     0       1         0          2
2nd     0       3         0          3
3rd     1       5         0          6
4th     3       8         0          10
5th     4       12        0          14
6th     6       18        0          21
7th     10      24        0          27
8th     12      33        0          38
9th     16      42        0          47
10th    21      54        3          60
11th    25      66        3          72
12th    30      78        6          86
13th    37      90        6          98
14th    42      102       7          111
15th    50      114       12         123
16th    60      126       15         137
17th    71      138       18         149
18th    84      150       19         162
19th    99      162       30         174
20th    108     174       36         186


Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
Pages: 1
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!