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sonofzeal
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« on: March 16, 2009, 04:13:06 PM » |
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Rating PrCs is difficult. It's obvious that some provide too much and some provide too little, but which is which depends on a lot of factors - base class entry being the most obvious. Where the difference between two "logical entries" is huge, those entries can be listed separately (see Rainbow Servant), but just like for base classes, a single PrC can go up or down based on optimization skill, and we should focus on what we see as the "average" use. We should only list a PrC multiple times if the multiple entries are all simple and straightforward given the requirements, as anything else falls under the individual's optimization skill. It's also difficult to categorize power. Soulbow certainly adds more to Soulknives than Mindbender does to Sorcerers, but I think most will agree that a high level Mindbender will still beat a Soulbow with both arms tied behind its back. Still, ranking them that way is merely repeating the obvious, that some base classes are better than other, down through the list of PrCs ad nauseum. That's neither helpful nor productive. Instead, it would make more sense to rate PrCs by how much advantage they give, over their "logical entries". In other words, a PrC for Soulknives is held to a different standard than a PrC for Sorcerers, and the grade tells you how strongly you should consider taking that PrC, assuming you're already working on a build that could qualify. So for this, I'll be referring to Tiers and how the PrC changes them, but I'm aware that there's multiple Tier systems out there that differ in substantial ways, and that some of these gradings will put classes into places they just don't belong when taken literally. A Tier 3 with an "up one" PrC wouldn't necessarily be a Tier 2, and a Tier 1 with a "down two" PrC would probably still be better than most Tier 3 classes. There will also be classes that go off the top or bottom of the scale. The goal is merely to make it clear that an "up two" is better than an "up one", and that both are only in reference to the starting point as given by the "logical entry". To repeat: the ranking is not literal. It's just a guideline to help novice or intermediate players know where to start looking. Books included so far Books still needed: Cityscape, Complete Champion, Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Fiendish Codex II, Ghostwalk, Heroes of Battle, Miniatures Handbook, Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, and Weapons of Legacy, plus any setting-specific 3.5 books we've missed. Up Two or More Tiers. These PrCs improve the power of their entry classes dramatically, either by building on strengths or by adding powerful new ones. Expect characters with these to blow their single-classed peers out of the water (and possibly get DM-smote, depending on the base class's power).Up One Tier. These PrCs generally improve their entry classes substantially, without radically affecting game balance. Expect characters with these to be powerful allies or dangerous enemies, without totally overshadowing their single-classed peers.Equal. These PrCs are roughly on par with their entry classes overall, trading strengths in certain areas for strengths in others, or provides moderate gains for a moderate investment (ie required feats or unfavorable multiclassing). Expect characters with these to fit naturally into a single-classed party.Down One. These PrCs are generally inferior to their obvious entry classes, losing out on important features in order to gain things that are likely not to matter in the long run. Expect characters with these to struggle in a single-classed party. They may still be viable for cherrypicking, or under heavy optimization.Down Two or More Tiers. These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain. Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick.Note - possible reorganization coming. |
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« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 01:31:37 AM by sonofzeal »
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Jvirtue55
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Posts: 64
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2009, 04:50:44 PM » |
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I think how you have it set up is really going to be helpful keep it up
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woodenbandman
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2009, 05:23:15 PM » |
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I disagree with some of your rankings, but I do like the organizations.
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sonofzeal
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 05:41:04 PM » |
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I disagree with some of your rankings, but I do like the organizations.
No two people are ever going to agree on all the rankings, but if you can convince me, I'll change it. And if you get other posters backing you up, I'll change it even if I'm still not convinced. Sound fair? |
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PhaedrusXY
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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 05:46:15 PM » |
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Incantatrix, Shadowcraft Mage, Dweomerkeeper, and Anima Mage should all be +1 Tier, I think. It would be more, but the classes that usually take those are already Tier 1 base classes. If added to a non-wizard, Shadowcraft Mage could be +2 tiers, I guess. Dweomerkeeper is arguably +2 Tiers added to anything, too.  I don't see many spellcasting PrCs in there yet, either, but I understand that this is a work in progress. |
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?
Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
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bitznarf
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Posts: 74
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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 06:26:56 PM » |
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I'll take a stab at rating the PrCs from Complete Arcane - these would be my initial impressions of the classes - note that I've not tried to optimize many of these to see where they could go.
Up 2 or more Tiers:
Up 1 Tier:
Alienist
Enlightened Fist
Fatespinner - this really is only a 4 level class
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
Sublime Chord
Equal:
Blood Magus - possibly considered Down One Tier at level 5 and beyond
Elemental Savant - possibly considered Down One Tier at level 5 and beyond
Geometer
Mage of the Arcane Order
Suel Arcanamach
Wild Mage
Down One Tier:
Argent Savant
Effigy Master
Green Star Adept
Wayfarer Guide - except 1 level dips
Down Two or more Tiers:
Acolyte of the skin
Mindbender (except a 1 level dip)
Not rated - I'm not familiar enough with these to take a stab at rating them.
Master Transmorgrifist
Seeker of the Song
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PhaedrusXY
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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 06:36:49 PM » |
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Alienist is down 1 tier. You can't summon anything but pseudonatural creatures anymore, and they aren't actually that good compared to the summoned monsters you lose the ability to summon.
Suel Arcanamach can add casting to a non-caster, and gets a great spell list. Definitely +1 Tier.
I'd also say Sublime Chord is +2 tiers.
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?
Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
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bitznarf
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Posts: 74
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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 06:39:58 PM » |
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I'll defer Alienist and Suel Arcanamach to your judgment there - I've not actually tried to do anything with either of those. (The most I've seen was the true striking dire weasels). Sublime Chord though - I don't think it would raise a bard (tier 3) to wizard (tier 1) level - it does definitely take a bard to a sorcerer's level however - up one tier.
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sonofzeal
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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 06:54:42 PM » |
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Excellent, thanks for those, I'll be adding them in now. The only change I'll make is to put IotSV as "Up Two", possibly with a note about the AMF / Prismatic Wall issue, and Incantrix because it's just so stupidly awesome when done right.
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« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 07:00:17 PM by sonofzeal »
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bitznarf
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Posts: 74
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 07:00:04 PM » |
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I don't think it's on the same level as a Planar Sheppard, but I've not actually played one. That and the entry requirements are distinctly suboptimal.
Ah, I see what you mean, very good then.
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sonofzeal
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009, 07:02:33 PM » |
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I don't think it's on the same level as a Planar Sheppard, but I've not actually played one. That and the entry requirements are distinctly suboptimal.
Nothing's on the level of the Planar Sheppard. The question is whether or not it's a significantly bigger boost than most "Up One" PrCs are, and I think it is.I think Alienist is "Equal"; you gain some nice things, but you lose some nice things too, and I think it balances out overall. I'll take PhaedrusXY's other recommendations momentarily.... |
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« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 07:05:18 PM by sonofzeal »
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Akalsaris
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2009, 09:53:52 PM » |
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Agreed on Alienist being at +0 for most characters. True Strike is actually quite nice compared to smite evil, and at low levels you generally only want to summon animals anyhow, plus the various other class features are superior to simply taking levels of wizard.
In my own case Conj. 5/Alienist 2 was a great build for an arena game, since it was a level 5-8 arena with a lot of concealment and cover, and it worked especially well with stinking cloud and similar effects. But it definitely loses steam against malconvoker or master specialist at levels 12+.
Oh, and I'd put Master Transmogrifist as -1 tier for a caster, possibly -2 tiers. It works well in niche builds like my last Iron Chef entry, but it really does suck compared to simply casting PAO or Shapechange.
Here's my reading for Drow of the Underdark, assuming that Half-Drow qualifies for the Drow racial requirement:
Up 2 or more Tiers:
Up 1 Tier:
Dread Fang of Lolth (Rogue/Fighter entry)
Equal:
Demonbinder
Down One Tier:
Arachnomancer (Can still get 9th level spells, but the abilities suck)
Cavestalker (Ranger entry)
Kinstalker (Only worthwhile in a heavily anti-elf game)
Down Two or more Tiers:
Insidious Corrupter (Arcane Spellcaster entry)
Cavestalker (Druid entry)
Eye of Lolth
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Endarire
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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2009, 10:07:41 PM » |
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Archmage (DMG) is Tier +0. It has spiffy abilities like Arcane Reach and Mastery of Shaping, but it requires 3 feats, level 7 arcane casting, and 15 skill ranks to enter, and you trade spell slots for abilities. You can get similar effects from feats or items at lower levels: Reach Spell for Arcane Reach, Extraordinary Spell Aim for Mastery of Shaping, Energy Substitution for Mastery of Elements, and a Ring of Arcane Might for Spell Power.
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Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future. Speaking of which: Don't even need TO for this. Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu]. Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
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Negative Zero
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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2009, 10:15:34 PM » |
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Master Transmogrifist is pretty meh except for the capstone, which has great potential for game-breaking.
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sonofzeal
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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2009, 11:45:57 PM » |
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Here's my ideas for Complete Divine. Feel free to make any comments before I put them in the list, as there's really only a few here that I have any experience with, so I'm mostly just going by a quick scan and may easily miss something important.
Up two
Divine Crusader
Rainbow Servant (Warmage entry)
Sacred Exorcist (non-Cleric entry)
Ur-Priest
Void Disciple (really not sure here..... any FAQ on how Sense Void actually works?)
Up one
Church Inquisitor
Contemplative
Divine Oracle
Geomancer
Holy Liberator
Radiant Servant of Pelor
Sacred Exorcist (Cleric entry)
Sacred Fist
Stormlord
Temple Raider of Olidammara (for non-Rogue entry)
Warpriest
Equal
Consecrated Harrier
Hospitaler
Pious Templar (except for 1 level dips)
Seeker of the Misty Isle
Temple Raider of Olidammara (Rogue entry)
Down one
Black Flame Zealot
Rainbow Servant (Sor/Wiz entry)
Shining Blade
Down two
Blighter
Entropomancer
Evangelist
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Endarire
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2009, 12:11:09 AM » |
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Divine Crusader is up 1 at most- and +0 in my opinion- since it gets spells no sooner than a full caster and spells are restricted to 1 domain. Ur-Priest far outdoes it.
Geomancer's viability varies greatly on its build. A Wizard3/Cleric3/GeomancerX sucks. Rules trickery to get all spells auto-quickened with Prestige Paladin and Battle Blessing puts it up 1.
Stormlord (AKA Stormlord of Talos) feels about +0. It's full casting, but requires 2 or 3 crap feats and its bonuses are very specific to electricity and spears/javelins. Storm Ride is similar to stormrage (Spell Compendium) but up to 4 levels sooner.
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Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future. Speaking of which: Don't even need TO for this. Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu]. Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
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ReaderOfPosts
Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
Posts: 115
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 01:57:10 AM » |
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How do you measure the truly bizarre one's like Chameleon?
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sonofzeal
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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2009, 04:24:04 AM » |
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How do you measure the truly bizarre one's like Chameleon?
Well, Chameleon really isn't that bizarre, just flexible. Its gameplay mechanic is pretty unique and distinctive, but power-wise it still functions like most other PrCs. It has a defined logical entry (Rogue, Bard, and Factotum come to mind, but anything with good skillpoints and Disguise works), and it grants a certain set of abilities. I'd put it at Up One or possibly even Up Two, though I'd prefer with hands-on experience made that call for me. There are a few PrCs I'm dreading though. Stoneblessed is an obvious one, since it's so bloody short, so easy to get into, and obviously only exists to help you do other things later on rather than standing on its own merits. Judging it is like judging the combined total weight of all the race-specific options it could qualify you for, plus some since you can still have race-specific options from your base race, minus some because it takes three levels out of your build. Legacy Champion is one of the other ones that's nigh impossible to rate, for most of the same reasons - it has no real entry, and it rests on the merits of a total unknown (whichever legacy weapon you choose). Not fun to rate. On this note - can anyone weigh in on Void Disciples? If I'm reading them correctly, some of the stuff they get is crazy beyond belief, but I've never really seen them come up on these boards before. |
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ReaderOfPosts
Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
Posts: 115
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2009, 11:46:34 AM » |
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The thing with chameleon is that it plays more like a base class you start taking at level 5 than a prestige class. The chameleon's I've seen played have all front end loaded dipping classes, so I would hardly say that you can qualify a prestige class legitimately lead into by Fighter 2/ Psy-warrior 2/ Cleric 1 as being labeled a +1 class, since all the lead-ins are of very different levels and types of play.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2009, 01:28:28 PM » |
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Zeal please update your first post with your new finds - Lets make this thing work.
Most of your classifications (that I am familiar enough with) are okay except:
Divine Crusader should be +1 since it requires a really maxed wis score to cast more than 1 of the single 9th level spell it gets at level 17 (also deity chose is very important)
Radiant Servant of Pelor should be +0. Its pretty much a pelor cleric. The real benefits take a long time to get (there are better ways) and what it is gives (rather than what it is supposed to give) isn't really that useful
MoMF should be -1 for Druid entry (being able to become anything except constructs, magical beasts, outsiders, and undead not about 20HD is pretty sweet.)
Of course MoMF with non-Druid entry should be atleast +0
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« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 01:31:58 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r |
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