no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?

[Omen of Peace]

Which reminds me of the age-old debate about optimizers versus "serious role-players". I always find that the "serious" people intentionally screw themselves out of part of the fun... for the purpose of having more fun. Seriously, WTF?

I doubt I'm very good at explaining it, but think of it as coming more from the "roleplaying" (and shared storytelling) part than from the "game" part. Games are indeed about winning ; storytelling is about making things interesting. I don't know about you, but I found novels with straightforward storylines (the hero always wins) terribly boring, so that I try to have stuff happen to my characters - even if it means making suboptimal choices sometimes. I can win even if my character loses.

In case this isn't clear, I have nothing against people who enjoy the "gaming" part more. Sometimes I'm one of them.

I've watched someone play through one of the early Zelda games without a sword(you can do everything except defeat Ganon).

Awesome !!
I'll have to do that one day.

What one person sees as silly or a perversion of a game another person sees as an extra challenge. *shrugs*

Well said.

[Omen of Peace]

<never mind>

[Caelic]

Which reminds me of the age-old debate about optimizers versus "serious role-players". I always find that the "serious" people intentionally screw themselves out of part of the fun... for the purpose of having more fun. Seriously, WTF?

...and for me, it's the opposite.  I see people who restrict themselves to only the most powerful choices, and thus miss out on any number of fun ideas that are slightly less powerful.

[Kuroimaken]

Which reminds me of the age-old debate about optimizers versus "serious role-players". I always find that the "serious" people intentionally screw themselves out of part of the fun... for the purpose of having more fun. Seriously, WTF?

...and for me, it's the opposite.  I see people who restrict themselves to only the most powerful choices, and thus miss out on any number of fun ideas that are slightly less powerful.

I can understand that point of view. I tend to play what looks like the most fun, and only occasionally toy about with a Wizard, Cleric or Druid (not a fan of full spellcasting, except for spontaneous. Too much of a hassle). That said, the idea of intentionally gimping yourself for a game of D&D sounds incredibly stupid. No one can deny that D&D is as much about combat as everything else. So playing a one-armed fighter with parkinsons could be fun for a while, but it's gonna get old awful quick.

[Straw_Man]

Which reminds me of the age-old debate about optimizers versus "serious role-players". I always find that the "serious" people intentionally screw themselves out of part of the fun... for the purpose of having more fun. Seriously, WTF?

...and for me, it's the opposite.  I see people who restrict themselves to only the most powerful choices, and thus miss out on any number of fun ideas that are slightly less powerful.

*shrugs* Sometimes it's about the arms race too. Op' yourself and you overshadow everyone. Op' them and the encounters are trivial. GM Op's the encounters and your back at square one. Some people think it's better not to start the cycle.

  Plus it's boring to see the same feat combo + spell etc. in its 42nd iteration. I'd rather be gimp and trying something new than play off the same schematic every time.

I can understand that point of view. I tend to play what looks like the most fun, and only occasionally toy about with a Wizard, Cleric or Druid (not a fan of full spellcasting, except for spontaneous. Too much of a hassle). That said, the idea of intentionally gimping yourself for a game of D&D sounds incredibly stupid. No one can deny that D&D is as much about combat as everything else. So playing a one-armed fighter with parkinsons could be fun for a while, but it's gonna get old awful quick.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Which reminds me of the age-old debate about optimizers versus "serious role-players". I always find that the "serious" people intentionally screw themselves out of part of the fun... for the purpose of having more fun. Seriously, WTF?

...and for me, it's the opposite.  I see people who restrict themselves to only the most powerful choices, and thus miss out on any number of fun ideas that are slightly less powerful.

That statement seems somewhat exaggerated, unless the big PP makes a regular appearance at your table. 

I've always found it fun to think of both a general character concept and a mechanical quirk that seem like they'd be fun, then optimize the heck out of it.

[Kuroimaken]

Which reminds me of the age-old debate about optimizers versus "serious role-players". I always find that the "serious" people intentionally screw themselves out of part of the fun... for the purpose of having more fun. Seriously, WTF?

...and for me, it's the opposite.  I see people who restrict themselves to only the most powerful choices, and thus miss out on any number of fun ideas that are slightly less powerful.

That statement seems somewhat exaggerated, unless the big PP makes a regular appearance at your table. 

I've always found it fun to think of both a general character concept and a mechanical quirk that seem like they'd be fun, then optimize the heck out of it.

Like Invisible Spell'ing EVERY spell you cast?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Which reminds me of the age-old debate about optimizers versus "serious role-players". I always find that the "serious" people intentionally screw themselves out of part of the fun... for the purpose of having more fun. Seriously, WTF?

...and for me, it's the opposite.  I see people who restrict themselves to only the most powerful choices, and thus miss out on any number of fun ideas that are slightly less powerful.

That statement seems somewhat exaggerated, unless the big PP makes a regular appearance at your table. 

I've always found it fun to think of both a general character concept and a mechanical quirk that seem like they'd be fun, then optimize the heck out of it.

Like Invisible Spell'ing EVERY spell you cast?

Done that.  Invisible shadow illusions for the win.

[Caelic]

Done that.  Invisible shadow illusions for the win.

Not my cup of tea, to be honest.  The first time I heard someone attempt to argue that an invisible Obscuring Mist still provides cover because "the rules don't say it stops providing cover," I honestly thought they were joking.

Now, granted, a shadow illusion (or any spell with effects that AREN'T based on vision) is another matter, but I still think Invisible Spell gets taken to silly extremes.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Done that.  Invisible shadow illusions for the win.

Not my cup of tea, to be honest.  The first time I heard someone attempt to argue that an invisible Obscuring Mist still provides cover because "the rules don't say it stops providing cover," I honestly thought they were joking.

Now, granted, a shadow illusion (or any spell with effects that AREN'T based on vision) is another matter, but I still think Invisible Spell gets taken to silly extremes.

I've always used invisible obscuring mist as a middle finger to permanent truesight.  It's much more useful to provide full cover only against the enemies who need to see enough to take special precautions .

[Operation Shoestring]

Done that.  Invisible shadow illusions for the win.

Not my cup of tea, to be honest.  The first time I heard someone attempt to argue that an invisible Obscuring Mist still provides cover because "the rules don't say it stops providing cover," I honestly thought they were joking.

Now, granted, a shadow illusion (or any spell with effects that AREN'T based on vision) is another matter, but I still think Invisible Spell gets taken to silly extremes.

I've always used invisible obscuring mist as a middle finger to permanent truesight.  It's much more useful to provide full cover only against the enemies who need to see enough to take special precautions .

+1 to that.  True seeing overuse when a player is specializing in illusion is just being a jerk.

I have honestly never played a charcter anywhere near as optimized as half the stuff i toss around on the boards.  I frequently start with the mechanics rather than the flavor, but to be honest, the favor takes over pretty quick, turning what was a Psywar//totemist melee monster into a weaker but more interesting Psywar/thrallherd/Incarnate archer/recon character.