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Author Topic: The Food For Thought Project  (Read 17805 times)
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Josh
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« on: February 28, 2009, 03:58:20 AM »

So you may have noticed that I started a few threads

This is the part of a big meta-discussion

Root Concepts

1) Food for Thought, Basic: Awesome + Better or Different + Best
We start by looking at some ground rules.  The reason for this thread is to keep things moving in the same direction.  By making proof have to come from the general case it will cut down on confusion.

2) Food for Thought, Basic: Pretty Please, GM May I?
This is an issue we have seen time and time again.  This combined with the Oberoni Fallacy remove lots of useless noise from gaming discussions. 

3) Food for Thought, Basic: Fun?
We had fun, Isn't that enough?

4) Food for Thought, Basic: Sticking feathers up your butt
Does not make you a chicken.  Pretending DnD is dramatic does not make it so

5) Food for Thought, Basic:The Oberoni Fallacy

6) Food for Thought, Basic: Opinion, Fact and Subjective, Objective


Conclusions:
Games Should Be Awesome
Games Can Be Better or Different   
Games Should Be the Best
Games are what they are
Games are not, what they are not
Games are the sum of their parts
The ideal amount of Fiat Resolution to use is zero.
The argument that the group was having fun so it excuses anything, is without merit.
It is a fallacy to state that: “There is no inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue with Rule X, because you can always Rule 0 the inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue.“


Advanced Concepts

1)Food for Thought: Hangups
We have established that people should play the best games, now we look at reasons they might not anyway.

2) Food for Thought: From Whence the Awesome?
So we know that you should play awesome games, why are they awesome?  What do people consider and look for?

3) Food for Thought: Payout Matching
We start looking at the end product and match backwards.  What games have what payouts?

4) Food for Thought: Games and PL Genre
This will start to go somewhere new.  Defining what games are and could be.


Lots more to come.


Oh and if you have questions or comments about this exercise as a whole, they go here. 

And, I may have missed things or it may be unclear why I did not include them, so if you see something that should be in a re edit and isn't, point it out to me please.

As it stands I am working through the Basics, then I will move on.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 12:03:53 AM by Josh » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2009, 06:41:14 AM »

Now this looks very cool. Clap
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emissary666
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2009, 12:59:11 PM »

 Clap Clap Clap
I must say, these threads are surprisingly un-Josh like
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2009, 01:57:32 PM »

Clap Clap Clap
I must say, these threads are surprisingly un-Josh like

Untrue.  These are VERY Josh-like threads.  He's already assumed that each premise in the chain is correct, and couched the next discussion in that vein.  I'm still very interested in seeing where these go, but it's clearly still Josh "teaching".
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2009, 03:22:09 PM »

Clap Clap Clap
I must say, these threads are surprisingly un-Josh like

Untrue.  These are VERY Josh-like threads.  He's already assumed that each premise in the chain is correct, and couched the next discussion in that vein.  I'm still very interested in seeing where these go, but it's clearly still Josh "teaching".
Yes, I do know how the execution of logic and proof work, you are correct.  Each premise builds on the other. 

As for me teaching, it is true.  It is also an attempt to learn and receive feedback.  Most of these principals are pretty obvious once you know and understand them.
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 11:02:39 AM »

Clap Clap Clap
I must say, these threads are surprisingly un-Josh like

Untrue.  These are VERY Josh-like threads.  He's already assumed that each premise in the chain is correct, and couched the next discussion in that vein.  I'm still very interested in seeing where these go, but it's clearly still Josh "teaching".
He's taking a softer than usual stance, from what I've seen thus far.  Granted, that means it's 'softer than Unobtanium', but, you know, baby steps.   Wink
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2009, 01:09:30 PM »

He's also not responding to all the baiting in this thread.
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Josh
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 02:25:21 AM »

Edited the index
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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2009, 04:44:22 PM »

Clap Clap Clap
I must say, these threads are surprisingly un-Josh like
Well, I need to take this statement back now. The threads have taken a VERY Josh-like turn
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2009, 08:28:08 PM »

Clap Clap Clap
I must say, these threads are surprisingly un-Josh like
Well, I need to take this statement back now. The threads have taken a VERY Josh-like turn

in what way?
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2009, 11:35:19 PM »

The sparring with Cam?
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« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2009, 12:27:55 AM »

The sparring with Cam?

Do you think I'm the problem? 

Compare my reactions with everyone who isn't Cam.
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« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2009, 01:41:22 PM »

No, you are not the problem, at least not wholly the problem, the combined effect of your method of replying and people who have persistent disagreements might be though.

You probably know this pretty well, but statements of fact(or statements in fact form), whether or not they are correct, tend to rub people who are looking for the reasoning the wrong way, especially when your reasoning is broken into multiple, apparently distinct 'facts', such that no possibility of error on your part is assumed to be possible(or hell, possible at all). It may be perfectly good logic, but wouldn't convince anyone who already has a stand.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
emissary666
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« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2009, 01:52:44 PM »

Clap Clap Clap
I must say, these threads are surprisingly un-Josh like
Well, I need to take this statement back now. The threads have taken a VERY Josh-like turn

in what way?

Your logic, reasoning, responses, and so on
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Josh
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« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2009, 07:05:41 PM »

Clap Clap Clap
I must say, these threads are surprisingly un-Josh like
Well, I need to take this statement back now. The threads have taken a VERY Josh-like turn

in what way?

Your logic, reasoning, responses, and so on

Not a useful statement.


No, you are not the problem, at least not wholly the problem, the combined effect of your method of replying and people who have persistent disagreements might be though.

You probably know this pretty well, but statements of fact(or statements in fact form), whether or not they are correct, tend to rub people who are looking for the reasoning the wrong way, especially when your reasoning is broken into multiple, apparently distinct 'facts', such that no possibility of error on your part is assumed to be possible(or hell, possible at all). It may be perfectly good logic, but wouldn't convince anyone who already has a stand.

Little better.

I am mostly setting up the "facts" and raising them for discussion at this point.  So can you suggest a way to state them as clearly and correctly, while stating them in a way more "acceptable."


As a point most of the not Cam commentary has been incredibly thoughtful.  We have had people project where I was going and help refine the ideas and offer insights. 
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Josh
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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2009, 12:13:23 AM »

This was brought up elsewhere.

The next food for thought is on fact opinion and subjective objective.
Please don't, we have enough arguments about that in most of the threads you make/comment in.

The very reason this keeps coming up is the reason to discuss it alone. 


And the main post has been updated.

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« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2009, 08:09:07 PM »

It is relatively ironic that you put up threads about objectiveness
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2009, 02:13:01 AM »

It is relatively ironic that you put up threads about objectiveness
Really?  Defend your point then.
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2009, 12:56:04 PM »

These discussions are proceeding (for the most part) in a civil manner. Let's not have any more snide comments or baiting. Josh is trying to stay on a kindler gentler path, lets join him.
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2009, 07:31:51 PM »

Sorry, my previous experiences color my view of this. I must say, Josh has been doing a lot better, though the subjective/objective threads could use some cleaning up
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