[3.5] The Soulthief Project

[VennDygrem]

Please see this post for the latest musings on the project.

This has grown from a simple one-class exercise into a full-blown project. Once completed, all content will be converted into a handbook format, possibly with a PDF download, and will essentially be a whole new system of classes such as the case with ToM, ToB, and MoI, though not likely as in-depth. The three main archetypes included in these classes are Champion (defender/tank), Thief (striker), and Mage (obvious).

The Soulthief

"Speak carefully, lest I turn you into the very instrument of your demise." Jerran Swyfte, Infiltrator of the Emerald Mist

[spoiler=Explanation]This stemmed from a discussion in this thread in which Prime32 was musing on creating a spell or something which could turn someone into a weapon. I decided to take that a few steps further, and derived a new base class from the concept. As you may be able to guess, this class takes a few notes from classes such as the Soulknife and Spellthief, as well as the Rogue, Monk, Paladin, etc. All of these classes have mechanics or concepts which are interesting in theory, but generally executed poorly, or combined with other lackluster abilities.

However, this is not a rewrite of any class. The inspiration for the class was due more to Prime32, bkdubs123, and veekie, thanks to the discussion in that thread. [/spoiler]

Hit Die: d8

Lvl    BAB                   Fort  Ref  Will     Special        
************************************************************
1      +1                     +0    +2    +2     Soulthief Precision
2      +2                     +0    +3    +3     Soul Weapon, Soul-Stealing Blow
3      +3                     +1    +3    +3     Soul-bound Power
4      +4                     +1    +4    +4     Strength of Character
5      +5                     +1    +4    +4     Soul-forged Infusion +1
6      +6/+1                 +2    +5    +5     Residual Taint
7      +7/+2                 +2    +5    +5     Otherworldly Grace
8      +8/+3                 +1    +6    +6    
9      +9/+4                 +3    +6    +6     Soul-forged Infusion +2
10     +10/+5               +3    +7    +7    
11     +11/+6/+1           +3    +7    +7    Astounding Resolve
12     +12/+7/+2           +4    +8    +8    
13     +13/+8/+3           +4    +8    +8    Soul-forged Infusion +3
14     +14/+9/+4           +4    +9    +9    
15     +15/+10/+5         +5    +9    +9    
16     +16/+11/+6/+1     +5   +10   +10   Ethereal Buoyancy
17     +17/+12/+7/+2     +5   +10   +10   Soul-forged Infusion +4
18     +18/+13/+8/+3     +6   +11   +11      
19     +19/+14/+9/+4     +6   +11   +11   Empty Body
20     +20/+15/+10/+5   +6   +12   +12   Perfect Soul

Skills (6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level): Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather
Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Religion), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Use Magic Device

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Soulthieves are proficient in all simple weapons and martial melee weapons, as well as with light
armor, but not shields.

Soulthief Precision: You are no mere brute, and as such your attacks are graceful and swift. At 1st level, you gain Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. You may apply the benefit of this feat to your Soul Weapon, regardless of its type. Your Soul Weapon still can not be used as an off-hand weapon if it is normally not a light weapon. Additionally, if wielded in two hands, you may only apply up to your Str modifier (if any) to your damage rolls, as opposed to 1.5 times this number.

Soul Weapon (Su): Starting at 2nd level, you forge a special bond with a weapon that you are proficient with out of your own soul energy. This becomes a potent focus item into which you can store the souls of your enemies. While you wield it, your Soul Weapon is always treated as magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, even when it has no active enchantments. It only grants its special benefits to you, and if sundered or disarmed, you may choose for it to reform in your hand at the beginning of your next turn. For anyone else wielding your Soul Weapon, it functions only as a normal version of the weapon, devoid of any benefits granted by Soulthief class features. You can transfer the bond to a new Soul Weapon by meditating for 10 minutes.

Soul-Stealing Blow (Su): Once per round when you damage a target with your Soul Weapon, you may choose to activate this ability as a free action. The target must make a Will save (Save DC = 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier). On a failed save, the target vanishes, their very essence consumed wholesale into your Soul Weapon. They are held bound in the weapon for a maximum number of rounds equal to one-half your class level + your Charisma modifier, afterwhich the target is expelled and reappears in an unoccupied space adjacent to you. If no unoccupied space exists adjacent to you, the soul is shunted to the nearest one, taking 1d6 damage for every 5 ft. it must travel this way. If you wish, you may choose to expel the soul at any point as a swift action. You may have only one enemy bound in your Soul weapon at any time.

Furthermore, the target is entitled to a new saving throw each round on its turn. Each round spent bound to the weapon forces the soul to struggle harder, imposing a cumulative +1 to the save DC. If the target fails this check, it can perform no other actions this round, even if it gets expelled from the weapon through other means. If the target succeeds on the check, they are expelled and may take their turn as normal. If the target forgoes this saving throw, it is treated as having automatically failed the check.

When you attack another target, the enemy currently bound to your Soul weapon takes half of that damage. A successful fortitude save (the save DC is equal to the will save to negate the Soul-Stealing Blow on a given round) negates the damage. Damage sustained in this manner by-passes all defenses, including armor class and damage reduction. If this reduces the target's hitpoints below 0, it is instantly destroyed, and is effectively expelled from your Soul Weapon.

Special: You can still bind a target with no Constitution score (despite their lack of a soul), instead absorbing the energies used to animate the creature. Such creatures are immune to effects which require fortitude saves and thus take no extra damage while bound due to this ability; They remain bound to the weapon as normal, however.

Soul-bound Power: The energy of your enemy's soul allows you to tap into some of their power. The benefit you gain while the soul is bound to your weapon depends on the target's highest ability score, as described below:

Strength (Su): Your weapon deals damage as though it were made for a creature one size larger than you. This amount increases one size  category each at 11th and 18th level (to a maximum effective size of Colossal).

Dexterity (Su): Your attacks against targets who are denied their Dex bonus to AC (such as while flanked or flat-footed) are exceptionally deadly. You deal an extra 1d6 damage to such foes, +1d6 for every five class levels you possess. Treat this as the Rogue's sneak attack ability; Thus, this bonus is considered precision damage, meaning that certain creature types are immune to this extra damage.

Constitution (Su): You gain temporary hit points each round equal to twice your class level. You may select this option for targets with no Con score. Such creatures instead grant you DR/- equal to half your class levels.

Intelligence (Sp): You gain the use of one spell, chosen upon binding and usable as a spell-like ability at-will (losing the soul through expulsion removes the spellcasting ability completely, but does not end spell effects already in place). The spell is drawn from the Bard spell list and can not be of a level higher than 1/2 your class level (minimum 1st level). Any spell used to change your form must involve a form that is capable of wielding your Soul Weapon, or the bind is broken and the spell immediately ends. While this soul is bound, your caster level equals your class level. This ability does not allow you to meet the prerequisites for Prestige Classes (such as those that advance spellcasting), though you may take feats which affect spellcasting, such as metamagic feats.

Wisdom (Su): You can channel positive energy, as a Paladin's Lay on Hands ability, except that the Soulthief can spend a swift action to refresh the pool of energy.

Charisma (Su): Your force of personality is supernaturally powerful. When any skill or ability requires the use of your Cha modifier, you may instead use double your Cha modifier to determine your capabilities.

Strength of Character (Ex): The continual battle of wits has honed your ability to sense an enemy's weaknesses. At 4th level, you may choose to apply your charisma modifier to damage instead of strength.

Soul-forged Infusion (Su): Starting at 5th level, while you have at least one soul bound to your weapon its effective enhancement bonus increases by 1. If, when you gain this bonus, your weapon already possesses an enhancement of at least +1, you may instead select weapon enchantments of a value equivalent to the bonus granted by this feature (for instance, if at 5th level you are wielding a +1 Longsword and you successfully bind an enemy to it, you might choose to give it the Flaming enchantment; at 9th level, you might instead grant it the Flaming Burst enchantment). The bonus improves by 1 at 9th level and every 4 levels thereafter.

Residual Taint: Beginning at 6th level, you may attempt to call upon the residual energies of some long-destroyed foe. By spending a swift action to focus your willpower, you may decide which benefit you are granted by your Soul-bound Power class feature after making a successful Soul-Stealing Blow. Once you make this choice, it can not be changed until you deliver a new Soul-Stealing Blow.

Otherworldly Grace (Su): At 7th level, you can add 1/2 your Cha modifier as an insight bonus to all saves and as a deflection bonus to AC.

Astounding Resolve (Ex): At 11th level, you are immune to fear and confusion effects.

Ethereal Buoyancy (Su): At 16th level, the soul energy you wield forever ties you to the Ethereal plane, reducing your normal gravity. You gain a flyspeed equal to your base landspeed + 10 (Good maneuverability), and all gear carried by you weighs 75% of its normal weight for the purposes of determining your load.

Empty Body (Su): You can focus and temporarily shed your physical body. This functions as the monk ability.

Perfect Soul (Ex): At 20th level, your soul is so strong that it transcends the normal limitations of mere mortals. Your type changes to Outsider. Additionally, you stop aging, and can not be magically aged. Finally, at this level, souls are no longer granted a Fortitude save against taking damage when you attack another target with your Soul Weapon (meaning that creatures with no Con score are now subject to this damage as normal creatures are).

Playing a Soulthief

--Coming Soon--

Other classes
Clerics, Paladins, Monks, and other similarly religious figures will undoubtedly see you as suspicious and untrustworthy.

[VennDygrem]

Changelog

02/25/09: Changed Soul Binding to Soul-Stealing Blow; Boosted BAB up to Full; Made several changes to simplify the use of class features.
              Forgot Move Silently on class skills list: Fixed.

Commentary

So, I felt the need to hold a spot in order to explain my thoughts on the class, as well as to place concerns.

I'm new to writing classes, and I'm sure it shows. I'm not entirely well-versed in gamebalance, and of course that's where you lot come in.

The first concern I've got it determining what the BAB should be. Since it has the potential to do a good amount of damage to several enemies, I didn't feel right giving it full BAB. However, Strength is essentially one of its dump stats, as far as combat is concerned. All that bonus damage isn't worth much if the class can't hit.

The most important issue, though, is determining the power of the Soul Binding feature. I didn't want it to be too powerful, so I made it so that not only are enemies only bound temporarily, they can fight back to free themselves. At that point, I was worried that the class would be too weak if it couldn't manage to hold on to the souls at all, so I gave them a bonus to the opposed check. I also had to make sure they couldn't just bind every enemy on the battlefield to the weapon, so I put a limit on the number of souls capable of being bound at one time.

I also wanted to have a class feature dependent on the abilities of the enemy being targeted, as it seemed flavorful and like an interesting mechanic. The issue here, though, if determining what ability score is highest. The easiest thing to do is just ask the DM. Alternatively, the DM could say the character needs to be able to identify the creature before binding them, and could give the class more knowledge skills.

Also, as a rogue-like skillmonkey class, should it get trapfinding at first level? 1st seems a bit bare beyond the feat, but I don't want this to be overkill.

There's more, but it's late and I can't think straight enough to think of them all. Please feel free to offer comments and suggestions.

[VennDygrem]

Changes Waiting to be Made

• Still need to add a list of extra options for the Soul thief to choose from at later levels to replace the ability to bind multiple souls (which otherwise granted the potential to gain multiple benefits from Soul-bound Power).
• Possibly need to split this into several different classes.

[bkdubs123]

This is all quite intriguing, but I think you would be better to give them full BAB, limit them to only ever being able to bind a single soul, and offer options for each ability score. Then, at higher levels, allow the player to choose multiple options from the Soul-bound Power lists.

Also, Soul Binding is already the name of the Binder's signature class feature. And as far as the ability goes, it needs to allow a saving throw to stop it initially. Changing it to full BAB gives you the ability to allow it as simply part of an attack. Soul-Stealing Smite, might be a good name for the feature, and it could be something like this:

Soul-Stealing Smite (Su): Whenever you deal damage to a creature with a weapon attack, if you do not already have a Soul stored inside your weapon, that creature must make a Will saving throw (DC 10+1/2 Soulthief levels +Your Cha modifier) or vanish, its Soul becoming stored inside your weapon. Every round you attack with the weapon, and once every hour otherwise, the stored Soul may make a new saving throw against this ability to free itself. You may also free a stored Soul at any time by spending a swift action. A freed Soul reappears in any open square adjacent to you. If there are no open adjacent squares, you are shunted to the nearest open square and take 1d6 damage per 5ft traveled this way. The freed soul then takes your previous square. If you deal damage to the same creature with the same weapon more than once in the same round increase the save DC against this ability by 2 for each hit. You may only ever have one Soul stored inside your weapon.

[VennDygrem]

Hmm, those are good ideas, and some of which I had thought about. I always intended to replace the touch attack with something else, but I was wary to use a Will save since casters would likely be able to overcome it more easily than other enemies.

Also, as for the soul-storing ability, I figured it would be best to keep it as something that would last for part of the encounter, if not more, similar to Rage. Again, like Rage, this would provide encounter-long benefits, without spilling over into non-combat situations.

Alternatively, something like the soul-smite attack could be used to gain points similar to Essentia, which can be invested in class features and abilities. Perhaps there are conditions in which you gain a point, continuously growing your power during the encounter (maybe with the threat of some impending penalty or downside to balance it out), and the trapped soul/soul-weapon becomes a special receptacle for some of these points. The danger here is becoming simply too much like the Incarnate.

It's pretty late, so I'll make a few changes like the BAB thing tomorrow night after work.

[VennDygrem]

Incorporated a few changes. I still don't like the idea of enemies being bound for longer than the combat encounter. There's really no reason for it since the majority of Soul-bound Power abilities are combat-oriented. These features are there for combat encounters, and the wide variety of skill options and high amount of skill points provide for out-of-combat utility.

I still need to come up with something to replace the benefits lost by removing multiple binds. As bk said, having a list of options to choose from is probably the right way to go. This class is supposed to be a relatively versatile back-up class with a little bit of randomness thrown in (one can simply ignore the level 6 ability if they want to maintain the mystery, though it's still there if this doesn't really work out for them  ). This list of options should be similar to the Astral Construct's.

I've also been toying with the idea of allowing the Soulthief to change their weapon to a different one somehow. The first run-through involved making the Soul Weapon more like the Soulknife's mindblade, but the benefit of having a physical weapon is that Soul-Forged Infusion increases the weapon's enhancement, rather than overwriting it, which is more useful than the Soulknife's gimpy bonus. The Soul Weapon should be a versatile tool, and the Soulthief shouldn't feel less powerful just because he chose a Longsword and is going up against a bunch of skeletons. On the other hand, other classes have to pay for the ability to morph their weapon, or otherwise carry multiple weapons that they can swap between. A Soulthief usually carries only his Soul Weapon, being that he's forged a special bond with it.

Also, what are the thoughts on giving the class trapfinding at level 1? Is it overkill, useless, what? I don't really see much room in a party for both a Soulthief and a Rogue, as both are skillmonkeys and are, essentially, 'strikers' (to use the 4th Edition role metaphor). Though, with different areas of expertise as always, the two could conceivably coexist in a party.

[EjoThims]

I think multiple binds + increased duration out of combat would be a little better than a longer list of options (though all three would be best).

I also think that the numeric value of the buffs tied to the binds should scale based either on HD or CR of the trapped soul, with a limit equal to slightly above your own ECL (probably ~+2 for CR and ~+6 for HD), and then the extra binds have a lower limit. This would mean that even with a long term (or even permanent) soul theft option, you would want to expel the souls eventually to replace them with more powerful ones.

I also think you should remove the damage to trapped souls from using the weapon, but perhaps add in options to cause the soul damage (with a save) to cause extra damage or trigger other affects (such as changing weapon type/composition or possibly refreshing the duration of trapping).

There's a lot of dead levels (6 [9 if you don't count the improvements to infusion]) to add such options into the class without overloading it.

Otherwise you'll have two problems with most standard encounters, firstly the bag of rats (or squirrels or whatever) buff up before going into battle, which is very easy while hidden. This is especially dangerous with Residual Taint or UMD to buff a particular aspect (likely Cha) of the weakling target. Secondly charging the BBEG, trapping him (he's saving vs twice your Cha, then you expel the rat as a swift action), finishing his minions with him to cause him damage, then just beating on the walls to cause him further damage until he either dies or is expelled at ultra low hp. Of course, since he loses his actions the round he's expelled, you just rinse and repeat until he dies inside the weapon.

As well, I think trapfinding at level 1 would be fine, but I'm curious, why Hide but no MS for skills.

[bkdubs123]

I think multiple binds + increased duration out of combat would be a little better than a longer list of options (though all three would be best).

The reason I am very much against multiple binds is that you can take out entire encounters by Soul Binding everything in them. If you can have 4 creatures bound to your Soul, you can completely ignore at least 4 creatures daily. That seems absurd to me.

I also think that the numeric value of the buffs tied to the binds should scale based either on HD or CR of the trapped soul, with a limit equal to slightly above your own ECL (probably ~+2 for CR and ~+6 for HD), and then the extra binds have a lower limit. This would mean that even with a long term (or even permanent) soul theft option, you would want to expel the souls eventually to replace them with more powerful ones.

I sort of like this idea.

I also think you should remove the damage to trapped souls from using the weapon.

I was never much of a fan of the, "damage stored souls when you attack with your weapon" part of the class. I have a feeling its just there to make the class more "striker-y." Taking a monster completely out of the fight is benefit enough, especially when you get bonuses for doing it.

As well, I think trapfinding at level 1 would be fine, but I'm curious, why Hide but no MS for skills.

Well, it does have Hide, just not MS.

Personally, I'd like the class as more of a front-line supernatural warrior, with higher HD, less skill-monkeying, and more face pounding. The one way I could think of to allow binding multiple creatures but keep it interesting and balanced would be to allow the bound creatures some form of attack against the Soulthief, and only against the Soulthief, while bound. This could make the Soulthief somewhat "defender-y" because by locking foes away in his own soul he forces them to attack him. Still, you'd want to grant more long-term buffs from the Soul Binding, as well as allowing options and versatility, oh and making the Soulthief much tougher.

[EjoThims]

The reason I am very much against multiple binds is that you can take out entire encounters by Soul Binding everything in them. If you can have 4 creatures bound to your Soul, you can completely ignore at least 4 creatures daily. That seems absurd to me.

While true if multiple binds followed the current restrictions, if it scaled and had a longer duration, you'd not be able to snag up a full encounter, or if you did, you'd have four others to fight instead.

Personally, I'd like the class as more of a front-line supernatural warrior, with higher HD, less skill-monkeying, and more face pounding. The one way I could think of to allow binding multiple creatures but keep it interesting and balanced would be to allow the bound creatures some form of attack against the Soulthief, and only against the Soulthief, while bound. This could make the Soulthief somewhat "defender-y" because by locking foes away in his own soul he forces them to attack him. Still, you'd want to grant more long-term buffs from the Soul Binding, as well as allowing options and versatility, oh and making the Soulthief much tougher.

That would certainly be an interesting direction to take the whole concept. I could see the two coexisting as a pair of different ideals from the same power source, like ToB classes.

[VennDygrem]

So, basically one thing I'm getting from this is that it might work as a Handbook of classes, like Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, etc. One Defender type, one Striker type, and maybe one stealthy or magical type.

The original concept of the class was to be a good fifth wheel, whereas most fifth wheels just fill in cracks.

The reason I went with the skillmonkey stuff was 1) To fit in with the thief part of Soulthief, making it a similar idea to Soulknife or spellthief as an alternative to the rogue, and 2)to give it versatility outside of combat, since the benefits of binding souls to the weapon were primarily in-combat.

The reason I gave a maximum amount of time on the binding is so that eventually you have to kill them anyway, meaning you can't bind a soul and completely forget about it. The most you do is lock him away so you can deal with the other enemies, and then finish him off later on. Giving them the chance to break free means that on any given round, you might still have to deal with them earlier than you hoped to.

The main reason I had the "deal damage on attacks" ability was actually to avoid bag-o-rats. You only gain the benefits while a soul is bound, and a negligible creature bound inside is going to die after one hit (even though you're only dealing half damage, such creatures usually have 1 or 2 hitpoints). Not to mention, the changes made based on bk's suggestion means that you've got to deal damage first to activate the bind, meaning that you're going to kill the rat before you can bind it anyway. However, given that you could choose to deal minimum damage, there are a few negligible creatures one could bind and still abuse this ability for at least one round, just enough to get some good damage off on the BBEG and bind him using the Cha bonus option. So, the abusability is still present even if unintended and unlikely.

How about if I get rid of the class's versatility via enemy's best ability score, altogether? While it was initially what interested me in the first place, it might be easier to work with several classes which fuel their class abilities by absorbing enemies' souls. That means that a Soul-defender would absorb enemies to keep them from attacking his allies, the Soul-striker would gain more damage by absorbing souls, and a Soul-caster uses his enemies' soul energy to power up his spells, etc. etc.

The main thing I want to avoid is having a class that runs out of steam half-way through an encounter. The fact that ToB characters can recharge their abilities is what I like most about that book. Daily versatility is what I like most about Incarnum; and both books (along with the Binder) offer several different ways to make a character, making each one unique and interesting (even if some options are weaker than others).

Also, I meant to give the Soulthief Move Silently. I've got it included on my Heroforge class template, but forgot to include it on the list. It should be fixed by the time you see this.
----------

I'd work on this more tonight, but I promised my brother I'd take him out to see a movie. I might be able to work on it some, but most likely I won't get much time until tomorrow. :/

[EjoThims]

The reason I gave a maximum amount of time on the binding is so that eventually you have to kill them anyway

As you would with a mechanic that encouraged the taking of new, more powerful souls. You could also make them have to actually kill the creature first, so the thing must be truly defeated.

Not to mention, the changes made based on bk's suggestion means that you've got to deal damage first to activate the bind, meaning that you're going to kill the rat before you can bind it anyway.

Damage it before you bind it, but you can bind it as a free action before it actually dies, which fits the falvor of stealing their soul anyway.

How about if I get rid of the class's versatility via enemy's best ability score, altogether?

I think it's a good idea, it just eneds to scale, and there need to be other options granted later.

The main thing I want to avoid is having a class that runs out of steam half-way through an encounter.

That's why I think the soul binding should be more long term.

I really do like the idea of different classes following the same theme, I just think that they should be more long-term, scaling benefits that you swap out when you swap souls, instead of static short term benefits where the largest benefit o stealing a soul is to eliminate that monster from the encounter. With the exception, of course, of the defender style soulthief, but I think that the ability to force a soul to fight only you should be separate from how a defender imbue souls long term anyway. And perhaps, just with the defender, souls forced to fight only him split half of all damage not caused by such souls? So they suffer too from others that attack him, but the more he captures, the less each individual suffers while he still suffers the same?

[VennDygrem]

As you would with a mechanic that encouraged the taking of new, more powerful souls. You could also make them have to actually kill the creature first, so the thing must be truly defeated.

This fits with the concept of having a soul longterm, though if you start combat without a soul bound, you're looking at being fairly plain until you personally manage to land a killing blow. I think that once I work the kinks out and get the long-term soul benefits figured out, that problem will be gone.

That's why I think the soul binding should be more long term.

I really do like the idea of different classes following the same theme, I just think that they should be more long-term, scaling benefits that you swap out when you swap souls, instead of static short term benefits where the largest benefit o stealing a soul is to eliminate that monster from the encounter. With the exception, of course, of the defender style soulthief, but I think that the ability to force a soul to fight only you should be separate from how a defender imbue souls long term anyway. And perhaps, just with the defender, souls forced to fight only him split half of all damage not caused by such souls? So they suffer too from others that attack him, but the more he captures, the less each individual suffers while he still suffers the same?

So, multiple classes is good, and definitely a good-sized project to work on over time. I think since I've got the groundwork done for it, I'll continue working primarily on the striker first, the actual Soulthief, and then get the basis for the other classes worked out.

It seems a lot like having the ability to "defeat" a soul is what we're looking for here, with the idea that once defeated you get to hold on to that soul until you bind a new one. The question is should there be a limit on this (time or otherwise)? It's been pointed out that scaling benefits is the way to go, and I agree (those already given for the class are not enough, in other words). However, there needs to be motivation to bind new souls. This would, most likely, come in the need to adapt to different situations, much like Rapid Pactmaking for the Binder.

The main questions I'm facing are thus:

• How long does the Soul-Stealer hold on to a soul?
• What action confers the ability to bind a soul?
• How often should the Soul-Stealer be able to bind a new soul?
• What benefits does he gain from binding a soul?
• What happens to the soul once it is bound, and then, after it is released?

If I am to go with the idea of "defeating" a soul to gain its full benefits, then I think you wouldn't need to worry about them returning once you release it. As mentioned, part of this might involve finding a way to damage it while you're binding it, or while it's bound, and giving it the ability to damage you. I don't want to take a Soul-Stealing class out of the combat at large, because that's really more of a disadvantage to their allies. The same issue seems to plague the enemies. Taking them out of combat is definitely too powerful, even with their ability to jump right back into it by freeing themselves. Another option is to wear away at your opponent's soul, gaining some cumulative benefit, and then ending with the complete stealing of said soul. The problem there is still that you have to be the one to kill the target. Perhaps being able to place some sort of "Soul-Lock" on your target would be an arbitrary work-around for that.

I think it's safe enough to say that this class, or set of classes, has come far enough away from the original concept of turning someone else into a weapon, and that growing past that is more than acceptable. The new goal is creating classes that take their enemies' power to increase their own.

Most of this post is just so I can work out some thoughts before I get a chance to work on the actual meat of the project later on. Comments and ideas are welcome, but not necessary (I'm not asking for anyone to write this for me, though neither will I turn down help). I've got work tomorrow, though I get out early and while I'm getting a haircut afterward, I should be home early enough to get some good work done.

[EjoThims]

However, there needs to be motivation to bind new souls.

I think that scaling the benefits based on the soul taken instead of just class or character level would provide all the motivation needed, especially if you allow the holding of multiple souls. Allow the retooling of the buff based on the soul with Binder style meditation? For example (concept but not balance): At level 20, you could have 5 souls, one of 25 HD, one of 20, one of 15, one of 10, one of 5. You gain attack/damage from the 20 HD, and AC from the 15 HD one day, then the next day switch them around.

This would, most likely, come in the need to adapt to different situations, much like Rapid Pactmaking for the Binder.

For rapid swap, perhaps something like a swap? Some mechanic that lets them, for a few rounds, swap a soul of a still living target creature for one nearby, allowing you to chose the buff granted by the new soul for the duration? This allows you back to some of the control, as well as on the fly changes to your buffs, but you have to release a (presumably) weaker monster in it's place (even if death is the steal mechanic, swapping the old soul into the other creature's body like).

• How long does the Soul-Stealer hold on to a soul?
• What action confers the ability to bind a soul?
• How often should the Soul-Stealer be able to bind a new soul?
• What benefits does he gain from binding a soul?
• What happens to the soul once it is bound, and then, after it is released?

My personal preferences for the baseline abilities would be:

Until choosing to expel or killing it through other special abilities (special abilities to do either and/or just expelling it when grabbing a new soul).
X% of damage + standard action or free action on death within X feet (great way to snag an ally's soul for res later). Possibly first with a special ability to do the second under certain conditions. Save either way.
As often as choosing, provided conditions are met, including spending an action to expel if death is not required.
Buffs based on class, scaling with HD or CR of the trapped soul.
Depends on the steal mechanic, but if death, allow new souls to override old ones, and the soul is destroyed when expeled (or used up by class abilities). If not death, have to expel soul and creature with an action (but abilities may still use up/kill soul).

I really think on death is the best way to do it, and just have part of the description of the ability say they start with one 1HD (or CR) soul bound, and give them a 1st level ability that slowly consumes a trapped soul (perhaps one use granted per HD?). That way, even at first level, they can start with their abilities, but have an incentive to steal a new soul even before reaching 2nd level when they can steal a more powerful one. This would also let them experiment early on with the boons of trying to snag souls above their own HD/CR, up to whatever limit is put in place, of course.

[bkdubs123]

I just thought of something that I really like, not sure about anyone else - a sort of cross between Eldritch Blast, Hexblade's Curse, and Soul Bindery. You give them a ranged touch attack that deals damage and bestows a penalty to attacks, caster level, saves, etc as it strips away portions of the target's soul. At the same time you establish a Soul Link with the target allowing you to syphon power from them. The penalty from the Cursed Blast can stack up some number of times, each time bestowing a bonus to you of the same value. However, whenever you Curse/Blast a target, if you have a Soul Link with any other creature, it dissolves, and you lose all bonuses gained from it, and that creature shakes off any penalties it was taking from it. Finally, whenever a creature you currently have a Soul Link with is slain, you lose the Soul Link and bonuses gained thereof, but you steal the creature's Soul, storing it within your own Soul and gaining a cool effect which lasts up to 24 hours or until another creature you have Soul Linked is killed.

Thoughts?

[EjoThims]

Thoughts?

Sounds like it would go great with a caster type soul stealer, since it's debuffing the target's saves, giving you some nice boost when they finally go, and goes along with the idea of a caster who would want to sacrifice a creature when prepping to boost his power even when just crafting or setting up defenses at his evil lair or such. Perhaps even use it with a spell point caster, and you gain SP over time (or auto augments?) as your Soul Link is active, but give a massive CL boost when actually have a creature's soul stored?

[VennDygrem]

While I like bk's soul-curser, some parts are actually somewhat similar to Stratovarius's Siphoner, located here. Similar, very similar, though still not quite the same. All combat, no utility, it seems.

On the otherhand, using the souls to gain spell points, or to boost casting ability in some way, sounds like a good idea. Sort of like a Wilder who gets a free wild surge on his next power after killing a specific enemy. When the idea came up for splitting the classes, I liked the idea of using captured souls to power spells, or powers, or whatever they may use.

Now, back to the overall issue of binding souls. The mechanic has to be relatively simple to use. I don't want someone sitting there for half an hour figuring out what to do. Also, while it's interesting to base binding on HD of the creature, and I've certainly considered it, it gets kind of unwieldy, especially if I put multi-binding back in. You can't always guarantee having lower HD creatures around the big bad guys. CR and HD are difficult to balance abilities off of, especially when basing PC's abilities off of monsters.

I think there was mention of having access to a level 1 soul to bind, so even at first level a character has some ability. I think this is a good place to start, giving a character some minor benefit even when he doesn't have ready access to enemies. The ability to call and bind a low-level soul would ensure having something essentially 'at-will' and being similar to being able to shape a soulmeld, even when you can't yet bind it to a chakra. I think the proper course is to start a character off at a lower power level with the option to become more powerful the longer he goes on.

Also, aside from being motivated to bind new souls, how about motivation to release a soul? Maybe expelling a soul heals HP equal to your class level, or something? Cleansing the taint, or some-such-thing.

This is a pretty comprehensive project, so I've got a lot to go over. I may have to work Saturday, so we'll see if I can get some time to work out some new class features. Heck, it might actually be easier to get the tank class done first, since its abilities rely more or less on one area of expertise.

[Prime32]

What about one class (the defender) which can absorb enemies immediately, one which absorbs defeated enemies, and one (skill monkey?) which calls on the long dead?

[VennDygrem]

I think the Defender, like most full BAB classes, will have more limited access to class abilities, in this case Fewer long-term soul benefits. His Soul-Lock will be used to ensure one or more enemies focus on him, so he can weaken them and so his allies don't get damaged. He'll have hit hit points, probably gaining THP from soul lock and other defensive boons, and might also provide buffs for his allies, probably the benefit for successfully defeating his targets.

The Skillmonkey, still the striker class, will gain immediate soul benefits which scale as he absorbs more energy. Though this energy is fleeting, he absorbs long-term benefits upon defeating his enemies, which provide him with bonuses and abilities outside of combat as well.

The caster tears away at his enemies' life force while supplementing his own, allowing him to use trapped soul energy to fuel powerful abilities in combat and out. He will strike a balance between offense and utility, much like a balanced wizard does.

At least, that's how I envision it. They all absorb soul energy upon defeating enemies under their soul lock, but some gain more benefit from it than others. I think perhaps the Defender focuses, as Prime suggests, upon immediate soul-stealing, or a different form of it, which is primarily defensive in nature (will probably find a way to damage while immobilizing the targets). Calling on the long dead will be part of other class abilities, probably more as fluff, unless you're referring to the long-term soul-capturing which provides extended benefits outside of combat.

[VennDygrem]

This project is not dead. I've been fairly busy with returning to college full-time and maintaining a part-time job. I'm planning on fleshing this thing out over the next several weeks, and have some ideas already brewing.

As for the Soulthief, I'm planning on taking out the entrapment of souls during combat, and replacing it with a mechanic that encourages hitting multiple enemies and increased mobility. This will be achieved by a Soul-branding Strike in place of the Soul-stealing blow. This will allow creatures marked by the Soulthief to take penalties and extra damage while branded. I'm still tinkering with that; One idea is to keep the concept of dealing damage to a bound creature when you hit another with the Soul Weapon. Over the course of several levels, the Soulthief will be able to brand more enemies, dealing damage to multiple enemies with one hit. Otherwise, branding multiple enemies will instill other penalties to be determined.

I still want to find a way to include the attribute-dependant class abilities. I may follow the concept of having a creature killed while branded by the Soul Weapon to be consumed by the weapon, as was suggested earlier. This could fuel longer-term benefits, and/or possibly granting Soul Points which could be spent on benefits for the Soulthief in-combat. Or instead of relying solely on being able to kill creatures, or how many encounters you've run into each day, the Soulthief would start each day or each encounter with a set number of points (like the Factotum's Inspiration Points), with additional points gained in-combat for killing an enemy.

The mobility would come into play with an idea I have been kicking around for a short-distance teleportation power. It would help encourage the Soulthief to teleport away from an enemy so as to be able to hit the next enemy, to escape from grapples, close the gap, etc. I'm not sure how much to limit this, whether it takes a soul point to activate, or is usable a number of times per day or per encounter, or is simply usable at-will.
----edit----
Hmm, giving them an ability to take on a special version of gaseous form might be even more appropriate, resembling 'soul energy' or some such notion. Will have to see how this might fit.
---/edit/---

Again, I'll be working on these concepts soon and will revise the original posting when I've got a rough revision written up. Any comments, ideas, or critiques are of course welcome.

[A_Shadow_of_Life]

I like it as it is, personally. And, am saving it's current form One soul at a time seems good enough, as the benefits of a high lvl Soulthief are nice.

Anyway, Thanks for the awesome class!