Help me with a homebred system.

[Kuroimaken]

Okay, here's the thing. I'm slowly cobbling together a campaign world based on the power of arts. (Which basically makes every artist a spellcaster, and every spellcaster a better artist).

I want to benefit people for being creative and drawing strength from different kinds of performance in combat. There's the obvious (dance and song) and then the not-so-obvious (acting, kabuki), and then there's the outright bizarre (for westerners anyway... calligraphy, tumbling). Most everyone will benefit from bard-like actions but only bards will get to boost other people via their powers.

The problem is, mechanics-wise, I have little idea of where to start. I have considered buffing bards (by basically making them follow a Bard/Lyric Thaumaturge/Sublime Chord progression) and/or giving casters a benefit similar to Song of Arcane Power (make a check, boost CL). But I'm a bit lost.

Ideas?

[veekie]

Well, off hand, the more abstract arts(calligraphy, etc) appear a natural fit for the 'pure' spellcasters, and can probably replace a good chunk of existing spell components. Physical arts like acting, dance and tumbling can be turned into ToB-esque supernatural martial arts. Anything that taps into emotions easily(off hand, almost all music) works as buff/debuff type stuff.

Won't give any proper mechanical advice still I get some sleep.
_{and dig out the old ranma 1/2 mangas for some Martial Arts and Crafts goodness.}

[Kuroimaken]

Well, off hand, the more abstract arts(calligraphy, etc) appear a natural fit for the 'pure' spellcasters, and can probably replace a good chunk of existing spell components. Physical arts like acting, dance and tumbling can be turned into ToB-esque supernatural martial arts. Anything that taps into emotions easily(off hand, almost all music) works as buff/debuff type stuff.

Won't give any proper mechanical advice still I get some sleep.
_{and dig out the old ranma 1/2 mangas for some Martial Arts and Crafts goodness.}

Err... Ranma's mix is a bit too comic for this. I don't think any player could possibly take Martial Tea Ceremony seriously.

[veekie]

Not all of it of course, but some inspiration might be necessary.

[Kuroimaken]

I suppose I could make a gag character out of it, but I digress...

[bkdubs123]

I'm not 100% sure where exactly you want to go with this. Bards and similar classes can already use any Perform check to do their thing. The Book of Nine Swords outlines Martial Arts (specific, and yes artistic, weapon combat forms). What is uncreative about Wizardly magic? At some point, spellcasters crafted their spells from the ether from intuition, magical knowledge, and good old fashion creative process.

Or are you talking about classes like, Bladedancer, Spellsinger, Spectramancer, Warrior-Poet, Wordsmith, etc. For crafting types we already have the Artificer, for pure singing types we already have the Bard (sure it needs revamped, but that's not so hard). I have my Dancer class which may or may not need some work, but it's playable and gets the job done.

What exactly do you aim to accomplish, and what makes this project different from what we have out there already?

[PinkysBrain]

Giving all the casters the equivalent of song of arcane power works fine to improve their spellcasting. Prepared casters can use the results from time consuming arts as material components, while performance art can improve spontaneous casters. Either way, a skill check determines the caster level of the spell (I wouldn't make it always positive though, let it both go positive and negative).

Be conservative of content, so they can't boost their skill checks to the high heaven.

[Kuroimaken]

I'm not 100% sure where exactly you want to go with this. Bards and similar classes can already use any Perform check to do their thing. The Book of Nine Swords outlines Martial Arts (specific, and yes artistic, weapon combat forms). What is uncreative about Wizardly magic? At some point, spellcasters crafted their spells from the ether from intuition, magical knowledge, and good old fashion creative process.

Or are you talking about classes like, Bladedancer, Spellsinger, Spectramancer, Warrior-Poet, Wordsmith, etc. For crafting types we already have the Artificer, for pure singing types we already have the Bard (sure it needs revamped, but that's not so hard). I have my Dancer class which may or may not need some work, but it's playable and gets the job done.

What exactly do you aim to accomplish, and what makes this project different from what we have out there already?

You have apparently missed the point.

The idea is to make a world where being an artist (in particular, a talented artist) gives you power. REAL, world-shattering power. As in, you can have a poet compose about the physical decrepitude of an enemy and watch as he withers and dies. You can have a painter brush a beautiful picture of a castle and make it appear, or make an actual raindance.

What on earth do you mean about the Bard needing a revamp, though? I think it's a fine, balanced class almost on its own.

[bkdubs123]

You have apparently missed the point.

Indeed, which is why I asked what you aimed to accomplish.

The idea is to make a world where being an artist (in particular, a talented artist) gives you power. REAL, world-shattering power. As in, you can have a poet compose about the physical decrepitude of an enemy and watch as he withers and dies. You can have a painter brush a beautiful picture of a castle and make it appear, or make an actual raindance.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade but:

1) Harbinger Bard Variant, using Perform (Poetics) can come close to what you're talking about with the first one.
2) The beautiful picture of a castle seems like it's just a supernaturally created Mordy's Magnificent Mansion.
3) The raindance - Control Weather with an odd Somatic component.

What on earth do you mean about the Bard needing a revamp, though? I think it's a fine, balanced class almost on its own.

Fascinate. Plus nearly all of the Inspire line (except for courage) is supremely lame. Not being able to cast 1st level spells from 1st level is basically like not being able to cast spells at 1st level. It is almost a balanced class, but it has a few shortcomings that nag at it, therefore a revamp would be nice (need was a strong word).

[Kuroimaken]

I'm not trying to rain on your parade but:

1) Harbinger Bard Variant, using Perform (Poetics) can come close to what you're talking about with the first one.
2) The beautiful picture of a castle seems like it's just a supernaturally created Mordy's Magnificent Mansion.
3) The raindance - Control Weather with an odd Somatic component.

Yes, but what I'm trying to accomplish here is to give everyone powers based on Perform/Craft/Profession without shoehorning them into picking a class.

Fascinate. Plus nearly all of the Inspire line (except for courage) is supremely lame. Not being able to cast 1st level spells from 1st level is basically like not being able to cast spells at 1st level. It is almost a balanced class, but it has a few shortcomings that nag at it, therefore a revamp would be nice (need was a strong word).

While Bards require a bit of research to become more fun to play, they are very rewarding when that's done. Inspire Greatness isn't really half bad, since it piles up a lot of bonuses with a single action, and with one spell you can make it last pretty much all combat long while you do something else. Melodic Casting helps improve the Bard by quite a bit (by killing the need for choosing in between actions). Also, he becomes a significantly better caster with Lyric Thaumaturge and Sublime Chord tacked on (neither of which has really harsh requirements), or gains better music through Virtuoso (the loss of a caster level isn't really that big).

Seriously, Bards have plenty of potential.

[bkdubs123]

Yes, but what I'm trying to accomplish here is to give everyone powers based on Perform/Craft/Profession without shoehorning them into picking a class.

So it seems like you might be better served creating several PrCs and expanding the uses of those skills. Ignore the Bard class and let anyone with Perform (Sing) belt out songs of power such as Inspire Courage, Song of Arcane Power, Inspire Heroism, etc; let anyone with Perform (Dance) cut loose with dances of otherworldly grace; let anyone with Craft (Painting) use the world as their canvas, shaping it with color, shade, and imagination as they see fit.

Basically you just need to add supernatural powers keying off of the skills themselves. I think perhaps the easiest way to do this is through skill tricks, but you could attempt your own style of "skill based casting" a la the Truenamer if you so desired. I could point you in a direction to look for inspiration on that.

While Bards require a bit of research to become more fun to play, they are very rewarding when that's done. Inspire Greatness isn't really half bad, since it piles up a lot of bonuses with a single action, and with one spell you can make it last pretty much all combat long while you do something else. Melodic Casting helps improve the Bard by quite a bit (by killing the need for choosing in between actions). Also, he becomes a significantly better caster with Lyric Thaumaturge and Sublime Chord tacked on (neither of which has really harsh requirements), or gains better music through Virtuoso (the loss of a caster level isn't really that big).

Seriously, Bards have plenty of potential.

I didn't say that Bards were unplayable, or a bad class. I never said that they didn't have potential. You said that you thought it was a fine balanced class almost on its own. Then you mention picking feats and multiple PrCs. That's what I don't like about the Bard. It doesn't quite get there by itself, and it has a few glaring flaws. A revamp would be nice is all I'm saying. I'd much rather a class stand on its own two feet rather than anyone need to take specific feats, or PrC out of the class to be viable.

[Kuroimaken]

I didn't say that Bards were unplayable, or a bad class. I never said that they didn't have potential. You said that you thought it was a fine balanced class almost on its own. Then you mention picking feats and multiple PrCs. That's what I don't like about the Bard. It doesn't quite get there by itself, and it has a few glaring flaws. A revamp would be nice is all I'm saying. I'd much rather a class stand on its own two feet rather than anyone need to take specific feats, or PrC out of the class to be viable.

There's a reason I said ALMOST. And let's face it, how many classes in D&D are viable on their own from 1 to 20? Off the top of my head, I can think of... the Binder, CoDzilla, Wizard, and that's it (and even so, none of these actually lose much by PrCing out).

Basically you just need to add supernatural powers keying off of the skills themselves. I think perhaps the easiest way to do this is through skill tricks, but you could attempt your own style of "skill based casting" a la the Truenamer if you so desired. I could point you in a direction to look for inspiration on that.

That seems like a good idea, though I'd want the players to not be limited in their choices there.

Hmmm, Truenamer makes me shiver. Far as I know it's a class that either sucks massively or rocks way too much...

[bkdubs123]

There's a reason I said ALMOST. And let's face it, how many classes in D&D are viable on their own from 1 to 20? Off the top of my head, I can think of... the Binder, CoDzilla, Wizard, and that's it (and even so, none of these actually lose much by PrCing out).

Which is the reason I'm still in the business of rebalancing. 

That seems like a good idea, though I'd want the players to not be limited in their choices there.

You would get very far adding some interesting usage into the skills themselves, and then using the skill trick framework to provide trees (possibly in a Shadowcaster Mystery Path fashion) of supernatural abilities.

Hmmm, Truenamer makes me shiver. Far as I know it's a class that either sucks massively or rocks way too much...

This is true, the published truenamer is a pathetic waste of space, but this is quite a solid effort - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4915339. Most of it is great, aside from the Absolute Limit shenanigans, and works wonderfully.

[Kuroimaken]

This is true, the published truenamer is a pathetic waste of space, but this is quite a solid effort - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4915339. Most of it is great, aside from the Absolute Limit shenanigans, and works wonderfully.

Hmmm, I'll check this one out.

Keep those ideas coming!

[veekie]

One purely mechanical consideration is that I think you'd need to hand out free skill ranks in these aspects, cross classing in Perform/Craft ranks is tricky.

Hmm, a Perform(dance/acting) based Swordsage school, focusing on illusion and confusion as motifs? Along with a Warblade/Crusader school with the classic dance/tumble sort, for dance-fighting, sorta like a white raven/tiger claw hybrid with less charging. The Dervish already exists for the more direct application of dance in combat.

Calligraphy lends itself naturally to an adapted Geometer, along with painting, they also work good with Symbols and Glyphs in general.
Acting can be linked to buff spells, in particular transmutations(Really Good Acting), while drawn art is good for summoning magic in general.
Poetry and song has traditionally been the refuge of all kinds of magic, Incantations R Us.

Coming up with PrCs for these should do a lot, as can classes specialised in the various arts as caster classes similar to the Dread Necromancer with a list of themed magics.

A list of the available arts to target might help come up with more ideas though. Not in D&D skill terms, just name/describe each one briefly. Ideas for PrCs, alternate class features and feats are easier to attach to less known arts. Doesn't matter how impractical it seems on the surface, it can be linked to something, probably magic if it's really impractical.

[bkdubs123]

Arts Powers
Arts Powers are an exciting new way of customizing your Artist, through the use of her specific skills, allowing her to perform such grandiose effects as Singing to inspire allies, Dancing to control the weather, or Painting a portrait that really comes alive! Because they require the expenditure of skill points, Arts Powers can be a burden to those without the skill points to spare. While any character can learn any Arts Power of any type, specific characters will favor certain powers over others, simply because of the class skill list, their areas of expertise, their class features, or all of the above.

Arts Powers are collected into various groups based on the skill they are tied to. Song Powers are tied to the Perform (Sing) skill, Dance Powers to Perform (Dance), Painting Powers to Craft (Painting), etc. Arts Powers are separated further from groups into Paths and are organized by Power Level from 1st to 9th. Higher levels are unavailable to characters until they have learned lower level Powers either within the same Path, or additional lower level Powers from other Paths. All Arts Powers share the following characteristics.

- Arts Powers are supernatural abilities.
- Learning an Arts Power costs 2 skill points. Whenever you acquire skill points you may choose to purchase an Arts Power instead of skill ranks.
- All Arts Powers have prerequisites of skill ranks equal to twice their Power Level +1. To learn it and use it you must meet these prerequisites.
- You can learn as many Arts Powers each level as you can afford.
- You can only learn a single Arts Power once. If you know an Arts Power, you know it.
- To learn an Arts Power you must have a character level equal to at least twice the Power's level -1 and you must know either the Power from the same Path that is one level lower, or two Powers one level lower from any other Paths that are part of the same overall Group.
- An Arts Power can be dismissed by its user at any time if it has a duration longer than Instantaneous.
- All Arts Powers require component costs of some sort, be they Verbal, Somatic, Material, etc. Often the Group an Arts Power is in will dictate the components for all Powers within it.
- Arts Powers are usable at-will, however for Powers with an Instantaneous duration players must wait 1d4 rounds before using said Power again, and for Powers with longer duration players cannot use said Power while it is currently effecting a creature, nor for 1 round afterward.
- Arts Powers generally do NOT require skill checks to pull off, they are supernatural extensions of your more mundane skill sets.
- Using an Arts Power that requires an action greater than a Move Action provokes attacks of opportunity.

Songs of Power
Songs of War - [Perform (Sing/Horn/Drum)]
Arts Powers from the Songs of War Path require either Verbal or Somatic components, your character singing or playing a Horn or Drum.

1 - Inspire Courage
2 - Motivate Urgency
3 - Inspire Greatness
4 - Motivate Ardor
5 - Inspire Fervor
6 - Motivate Toughness
7 - Inspire Heroism
8 - Motivate Determination
9 - Inspire Legends

Inspire Courage
Level: 1
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Area: 100ft
Duration: 5 minutes.

For the duration you and allies that can hear your performance that are within the area gain a morale bonus to attacks and saves against Fear and Compulsions equal to +1, improving by +1/four ranks in Perform (Sing/Horn/Drum) you possess.

Motivate Urgency
Level: 2
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Area: 100ft
Duration: 1 round

For the duration you and all allies that can hear your performance that are within the area gain a +10 bonus to all movement speeds improving by +5/four ranks in Perform (Sing/Horn/Drum) you possess.

Inspire Greatness
Level: 3
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Target: One Creature
Duration: 5 minutes

For the duration the target gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and critical confirmation rolls equal +1, and an additional +1/four ranks in Perform (Sing/Horn/Drum) you possess. Further he gains temporary hitpoints equal to 5d6+twice his number of HD.

~~~~~~~

I think I'm done with this idea for now... I really got carried away there...

[veekie]

Advanced skill tricks eh, something could be done with that, though hell if I know where they're going to have skill points left for much afterwards.

[Prime32]

Can't you just do this through reflavouring? A wizard might recite a poem whenever he uses Empower Spell, for instance, while a warblade using Insightful Strike might "paint" a man with a calligraphy brush, then have his body burst into wounds.

[Kuroimaken]

Can't you just do this through reflavouring? A wizard might recite a poem whenever he uses Empower Spell, for instance, while a warblade using Insightful Strike might "paint" a man with a calligraphy brush, then have his body burst into wounds.

Considering how mechanics-heavy D&D is, plain old reflavouring just wouldn't cut it. I want to give the players the opportunity to do something truly unique while investing in class skills that would otherwise have seen little use, with a more artistic bent.

By the way, bkdubs, loved the initial draft on Arts Powers. (Knowing me I'll probably rename it as something in Japanese but fluff isn't THAT important at this juncture). I also like how you made them scale with character level, thus ensuring that even a character who doesn't invest heavily in it can still get some mileage out of them. Now, let's start with a small list of artforms I'd like to work into this...

Drawing/painting/sketching: all using a visual and a hard medium to convey a message, could be useful for conjuration types (creation and summoning specifically).
Calligraphy: similar to drawing, but more rigid in structure (command-based?).
Dancing: based around vigor, movement, and distraction (depends on the kind of dance. Mobility-based buffing/debuffing? Why not?).
Crafting: the act of breathing life into an object and working it into a beautiful shape (constructs and intelligent items, here I come!).
Singing/playing instruments: deals heavily with emotion, but because music is a very complex medium (not that the others aren't), it could be used for just about everything. Thinking in terms of spellcasting, music probably covers every school of magic we can think of (except, perhaps, for divination?).
Tea ceremony: Yes, this WILL come up. An artform based on grace and elegance within a very rigid set of rules. It requires extremely careful study and even greater discipline. (While considered more suitable for women than men, it's by no means exclusive. I think. I can't really tell which kind of ability would work for this though...)
Kabuki: a variant of acting, it could be considered in many ways the Japanese cousin of opera. Though it's slightly less about singing and a little more about acting than its western counterpart.

Here are some ideas. I'm welcoming brainstorms, as I continue to work from my end as well.

[bkdubs123]

I kinda want to see what could be done with Perform (Weapon Drill), Profession (Chef), and what might be the differences between Tumbling Arts vs Dancing Arts.