Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]

[killercoffee]

Hmm. I always thought it did (Hence, the famed ogre magi Pale Master). What the heck is a FAG anyways (in context, please).

Also, I don't think you can take continued ability progress in that way. That would be like taking +1 spellcasting level; its not really a class feature.

That Chronotyrym ability is amazing though.

@Emy: I'll add that to the handbook.

Edit: I just looked at the Chronotyrym ability again, and it apparently hinges on the creature having two brains and two voice boxes. This makes it unsuitable for Acquire Special Ability via RAW, because it requires physical attributes. It sort of makes sense though (like a permanent schism, which sort of fits along the lines of having a ton of other people's thoughts mashed up in your head).

[Zombieboots]

Class Abilities:
Uncanny Trickster / Legacy Champion: Continued ability progress from one other class, gives you infinite ECL as Illithid Savant, meaning that you get all abilities of all creatures whose brains you've devoured.

I don’t believe this works by RAW as it specifically says it applies to classes you actually have levels in, and it wouldn’t work on the Illithid Savant Class itself because of how it’s own class abilities are worded. Would still work for any other classes you actually do have levels in.
Lest that’s how I’m reading it, I would not object to a double-check but I’m fairly certain.

Acquire Skill: Minor nit-pick, it is worth mentioning that this ability does allow you to obtain skill ranks higher then you would normally be allowed.

The Tumble skill is also decent for getting in or at very lest out of places- even if Dex isn't a high priority stat.

True naming: Ugh… If only it worked! If I ever did make a Savant I would snap up the chance to get some truenaming ranks! I love truenaming! Is it a good idea? No. Not really... You have better things to do then worrying about boosting Truename Checks.

Don't own PHBII: Is it possible to "Retrain" any skills you don't like?

Lore: “Lackluster”? I won’t disagree but it certainly does have it’s uses. It allows you to pick up and put to together all kinds of information. Take for example:

Savant: “Hmn That Blink Dog was exceptionally delicious... I wonder what I can do now that I can side in-between the folds of space?”
*Somewhere… the phrase “I make a lore check is heard” and a d20 hits the plastic table top*
Savant: “Well now that I think of it… I remember that Berg-Rogue I ate back in the Cage… Had a run in with some sort of “Shadowlord.” I think I’ll be paying Telflammar on Toril a visit.”

Long and short: Since your already and Mind Flayer with Planeshift(!) as a natural talent. Lore is your best friend to help you pick out your “choice” abilities you wish out of life. Eat a lore master (or the like) and then there is no reason for you not to know anything... or where to find it.

Acquire Class Features:

Soulbinding from Binders in Tome of Magic is based you EBL (so your level?) so that might be another good choice.

Imbue Item from Warlocks with Use Magic Device is huge as well. Item Creation from Artificers is actually better. Since you can get ranks higher then your level would allow this is golden with an sort of caster level.

Spell Mimic or “See it again” from a Visionary Seeker or Ardent Dilettante (both from the Planar Handbook) are favorites of mine… not very optimal. Just fun!

Edit: I just looked at the Chronotyrym ability again, and it apparently hinges on the creature having two brains and two voice boxes. This makes it unsuitable for Acquire Special Ability via RAW, because it requires physical attributes...

Well... Really it's only the two Voice box problem. You clearly have two brains, more in fact. 

~Boots

[Surreal]

Just noticed a creature from Unapproachable East, the Nilshai. It has a "Fearsome Celerity" ability which in 3.0 terms was an extra partial action each round. Is that a standard action in 3.5? They also have an inherent Mind Blank which is pretty tasty.

[Emy]

Just noticed a creature from Unapproachable East, the Nilshai. It has a "Fearsome Celerity" ability which in 3.0 terms was an extra partial action each round. Is that a standard action in 3.5? They also have an inherent Mind Blank which is pretty tasty.

Sounds like the choker's quickness (su). I'm not sure how the partial action translates into 3.5 though. If I had a 3.0 Monster Manual I'd check the mhoker entry to compare the abilities.

(Or just eat a choker, instead.)

edit:

"Partial action" is a "move action" now a days.

Yep. Definitely eat a choker.

[Zombieboots]

Just noticed a creature from Unapproachable East, the Nilshai. It has a "Fearsome Celerity" ability which in 3.0 terms was an extra partial action each round. Is that a standard action in 3.5? They also have an inherent Mind Blank which is pretty tasty.

"Partial action" is a "move action" now a days.

[killercoffee]

@Zombieboots:

Acquire Skill: Minor nit-pick, it is worth mentioning that this ability does allow you to obtain skill ranks higher then you would normally be allowed.

I'm almost certain this is not the case unless I missed an errata or something.

At 1st level, an illithid savant can
acquire one skill known by a creature whose brain he has
consumed, chosen at the time of consumption. He perma-
nently gains all of the creature’s ranks in that skill (but not
racial or ability score bonuses to the skill modifier) even if
his new total is more ranks than the illithid savant’s current
character level would normally allow. This skill becomes a
class skill for the illithid savant, and he may buy more ranks
in the skill if the new ranks do not cause him to exceed his
maximum ranks in the skill.

Meaning that you could stack, for example, Diplomacy, giving yourself a total of...a lot...of skill ranks in it by level 20 (Easily 100+ using Emy's build).

Lore: “Lackluster”? I won’t disagree but it certainly does have it’s uses. It allows you to pick up and put to together all kinds of information. Take for example:

<Stuff>

Long and short: Since your already and Mind Flayer with Planeshift(!) as a natural talent. Lore is your best friend to help you pick out your “choice” abilities you wish out of life. Eat a lore master (or the like) and then there is no reason for you not to know anything... or where to find it.

That sort of synergy hadn't occurred to me.

Acquire Class Features:

<Stuff>

The thing to remember is that you gain the class abilities at the level at which the owner of the brain had them. So, if you eat the brain of a 20th level binder and take his Soulbinding, you get 20th level soulbinding, no matter what your level is.

[awaken DM golem]

Acquire Skill - is one of the very few ways to go Over the normal skill rank maximum.

example - you are 14th level, eat a brain with 25 Ranks in skill X, you get all the ranks.

**

EDIT - got the crosspost warning ...


I suppose an argument needs to be had, about whether the Skill Ranks eaten would OVERLAP or STACK.
Clearly bypassing the normal cap is doable.
" ... gains all of the creature's ranks ... "

[woodenbandman]

Seems to me that they're intended to stack, seeing as how you get all the other class features several times, and one ability/class feature gained doesn't overlap the other.

[awaken DM golem]

Legacy Champion - can extend the class advancement into the Epic progression.

Thrallherd 1 - can do the Thrallherd Sacrifice shuffle , getting a new brain to eat everyday.
Easy way to guarantee getting the exact race you want , and/or class you want.

Early entry is complicated.
Warforged
Makes an Intelligent item as cheaply as possible, with the 10 ranks in the skill it needs.
Fusion - into fused warforged + item
PAO - into new (warforged + item) construct
then
PAO - into the squiggly thingies from CPsi , that are specifically described as Illithid young.
PAO - 2nd time to cement it.
The spellcasting is expensive, as is the item, for low level characters. And it has mega weakness to Dispels.
Intelligence of the squiggly sucks real brains bad.
Caster stats in general are awful.
But hey, it is rediculous.


10 Ranks of a skill happens at level 7.
Illithid something can happen sooner.
Favored feat sucks + "that feat from cityscape" = get in one level early

[killercoffee]

The savant has an epic progression already.

I'm trying to figure out your...method of early entry. Are you talking about the Larval Flayer? The only thing is I don't think that would work by RAW cuz it isn't actually a Mind Flayer.

[Echoes]

Assuming you can use the PAO trick to become an Illithid at lower levels (so you can get into Illithid Savant at 8), the Ritual of Unlearning from SS is crazy. It allows you to become a creature of X ECL once you reach that ECL on your own.

What you are supposed to do is start the ritual at level 1 and level up normally, paying as you go until you reach the ECL of the creature you want to become. Then you trade in all the class levels you've earned since starting the ritual (you keep whatever levels you had when you started) and become a 1st-level whatever. What you actually do is level normally until you reach the ECL of the creature you want to turn into (15 in this case) and then start the ritual. Since you keep whatever class levels you had when you started the ritual, you are now a Mind flayer with 15 class levels that is ECL 15. So, go X 7/Illithid Savant 8, using PAO to get into Illithid Savant initially. Once you hit ECL 15, you do the Ritual of Unlearning, become a Mind flayer, and then continue leveling normally. In the end, you'll be a Mind flayer X 7/Illithid Savant 10/Y 3 that is ECL 20 (and yes, you have 28 HD. Don't ask me how they thought this crap was supposed to be balanced).

Now, the main downside to this is that it is expensive. To turn into a Mind flayer would cost 256,000gp. Still, this is hands-down the best way to have your cake and eat it too.

[bogsnes]

shouldn't this be in the handbook thingy?

Also, aquire class feature to get martial maneuvers could be awesome...

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I'll weigh in and say they overlap rather than stack...

Legacy Champion - can extend the class advancement into the Epic progression.

Whoa wait... can we verify this? I don't remember that class doing anything like this.

Assuming you can use the PAO trick to become an Illithid at lower levels (so you can get into Illithid Savant at 8), the Ritual of Unlearning from SS is crazy

Close.  I had an idea for a build along these lines since... wow over a year now. Damn I wish I had more time on my hands. I'll point this thread to the build when I finish (this thread reminded me).

[awaken DM golem]

The various Illithid entries include:
Tadpole stage of Illithid, is the crawl in the ear, and eat the brain stage. Specifically called an Illithid young.
Larval stage is the briny pool eating brain chum like a shark stage. Specifically called an Illithid young.

Another way, would be a Tauric base race lower half, Larval Flayer upper half, for an LA of +1

**

Legacy Champion PrC and Uncanny Trickster PrC advance class features.
You take a Lurk or a Divine Mind (both CPsi) and they have nothing, and I mean nothing ,  else to advance their class features.
Soulknife gets about the same treatment, but 2 or 3 PrCs advance it's stuff.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I looked but couldn't find much info on it; I thought Legacy Champion could not advance a PrC into its epic form (and so not be useful for illithid Savant) or am I barking at the moon?

Im done with that build but I'm waiting on the LC question, since epic illithid Savant is too good to ignore.

[Lo77o]

I think i might have stumbled upon a way to play an illithid savant without actually being an illithid, or spending massive amounts of gold on rituals or POA that is vulnerable to dispels.

I will try and do this in stages, and if i am wrong or makes a mistake in one of the steps, hopefully someone else can help find another solution.

Step 1: Play as a changeling.

The changeling has the "Minor Change Shape" ability. This uses the restriction from the disguise self spell, but the changes are physical and real. This wont give me any abilities from the race i turn into, other than i look like the race, and get +10 to disguise.

The only restrictions in disguise self is size and general shape. So you will be able to look like templated forms, so long as you stick with a size and general shape that is humanoid and medium.

Step 2: Use "Minor Change Shape" to take on the appearance of an [Incarnate Construct] [Effigy] Mind Flayer.

You are now disguised as a medium humanoid.

Step 3: Pick the "Racial Emulation" feat from RoE, and you now count as the race your disguised as, so long as it is a humanoid race.

Is there any RAW flaws in this?

[sirpercival]

Thank you for the thread necro, so I can post my IS questions here.

1) Are there any circumstances under which an IS would lose the abilities it acquired from snacking on grey matter?

2) When an IS eats a brain with a use/day class feature, how many uses of that class feature does it gain?  One, or the amount the brain had?
2a) When an IS eats two brains which have the same class feature (and chooses said feature), do the two features stack? 

An example: say your IS is 7th level so it can yoink 2 class features off of a single brain.  It eats two 10th-level Dweomerkeeper brains, and chooses (of course) supernatural spell and cloak of mysteries from both.  How many uses per day of supernatural spell does it get?  How many levels are its metamagic feats reduced by?

3) When an IS eats a spellcaster's brain, does it have to choose "spellcasting" as a class feature to acquire spells, or by RAW does it get those in addition to the class features it chooses?

4) If an epic IS eats Zeus's brain (for example) with a side of fava beans and a nice chianti, what does it get?  What SA's and SQ's are up for grabs?  In most deity write-ups, "salient divine abilities" is a single entry under "special attacks"...

[SorO_Lost]

1) Are there any circumstances under which an IS would lose the abilities it acquired from snacking on grey matter?

Loss of Extraordinary Abilities, the Acquire line of abilities is Ex based.

2) When an IS eats a brain with a use/day class feature, how many uses of that class feature does it gain?  One, or the amount the brain had?

I'd go with generic as possible. Example, the IS gains SA as a 5th level Rogue, not Bob's total SA with is derived from 5 levels in Rogue, 3 in Dread Commando, 10 in Assassin, etc. Same can be said for uses. Like acquiring the brain of a Paladin 5/Fist of Razial 10 would either give you 5th level Paladin Smite (2/day) or 10th level FoR Smite (5/day, stacks with other smite).

2a) When an IS eats two brains which have the same class feature (and chooses said feature), do the two features stack?

Sage ruled no, actually as a habit Sage rules everything to obey the stacking rules of spells. Kinda makes sense to default to those rules too since they would answer the normally impossible question of "what if I have two 1st levels in Rogue".

3) When an IS eats a spellcaster's brain, does it have to choose "spellcasting" as a class feature to acquire spells, or by RAW does it get those in addition to the class features it chooses?

No. Acquire class Feature explicitly calls out if they are a spellcaster you may obtain X, you don't get to ignore it and obtain spells anyway. It's like ignoring SA doesn't work on creatures immune to Critical Hits and saying you can SA Undead anyway.

4) If an epic IS eats Zeus's brain (for example) with a side of fava beans and a nice chianti, what does it get?  What SA's and SQ's are up for grabs?  In most deity write-ups, "salient divine abilities" is a single entry under "special attacks"...

Even if you could obtain a Salient Divine Ability from eating a brain, Feats & PrCs are lost if you fail to meet the prerequisites. It would make sense SDAs are lost if you lack Divine Ranks too. So go eat a dragon's brain (see draco) and read on up SDA rules to see just how well they are tied to your Divine Ranks (ie at rank 1 can you have 10 SDAs?)

[sirpercival]

1) Are there any circumstances under which an IS would lose the abilities it acquired from snacking on grey matter?

Loss of Extraordinary Abilities, the Acquire line of abilities is Ex based.

So, no then.  I can't think of any circumstance that would cause loss of an Ex ability.

2) When an IS eats a brain with a use/day class feature, how many uses of that class feature does it gain?  One, or the amount the brain had?

I'd go with generic as possible. Example, the IS gains SA as a 5th level Rogue, not Bob's total SA with is derived from 5 levels in Rogue, 3 in Dread Commando, 10 in Assassin, etc. Same can be said for uses. Like acquiring the brain of a Paladin 5/Fist of Razial 10 would either give you 5th level Paladin Smite (2/day) or 10th level FoR Smite (5/day, stacks with other smite).

Makes sense.

2a) When an IS eats two brains which have the same class feature (and chooses said feature), do the two features stack?

Sage ruled no, actually as a habit Sage rules everything to obey the stacking rules of spells. Kinda makes sense to default to those rules too since they would answer the normally impossible question of "what if I have two 1st levels in Rogue".

So there's no gain whatsoever in eating two brains and picking the same class features from each?

Also, this is contradicted by the spellcasting rule because you can gain more spells by eating more spellcaster brains, but I recognize that that is probably a specific exception.

3) When an IS eats a spellcaster's brain, does it have to choose "spellcasting" as a class feature to acquire spells, or by RAW does it get those in addition to the class features it chooses?

No. Acquire class Feature explicitly calls out if they are a spellcaster you may obtain X, you don't get to ignore it and obtain spells anyway. It's like ignoring SA doesn't work on creatures immune to Critical Hits and saying you can SA Undead anyway.

I probably agree with you in effect, but the reason I bring up the question is not exactly addressed by your example.  Undead traits include being immune to critical hits and precision damage.  However, here's the text for Acquire Class Feature (emphasis mine):

Acquire Class Feature (Ex): At 3rd level, an illithid
savant permanently gains one class feature of a consumed
brain's owner, as a character of that creature's level in that
class. If the former character was a spellcaster, the illithid
savant is able to cast one spell of each level available to the
character (if the victim was a wizard, the mind flayer must
still consult a spellbook or learn from scrolls), as well as any
bonus spells provideded by the illithid savant's ability
scores. If the illithid savant already has spellcasting levels,
these spells are in addition to those granted by the illithid
savant's spellcasting class levels.

What it probably should have said is "if the former character was a spellcaster and illithid savant chooses the 'spellcasting' class feature as the target of this ability, the illithid savant is able to blah blah blah."  However, it doesn't say that, all it says is essentially "if you eat a spellcaster's brain, you get spell slots".

4) If an epic IS eats Zeus's brain (for example) with a side of fava beans and a nice chianti, what does it get?  What SA's and SQ's are up for grabs?  In most deity write-ups, "salient divine abilities" is a single entry under "special attacks"...

Even if you could obtain a Salient Divine Ability from eating a brain, Feats & PrCs are lost if you fail to meet the prerequisites. It would make sense SDAs are lost if you lack Divine Ranks too. So go eat a dragon's brain (see draco) and read on up SDA rules to see just how well they are tied to your Divine Ranks (ie at rank 1 can you have 10 SDAs?)

Hmm... agreed.  Prereq for having any SDA's is having divine rank >0.

[SorO_Lost]

What it probably should have said is "if the former character was a spellcaster and illithid savant chooses the 'spellcasting' class feature as the target of this ability, the illithid savant is able to blah blah blah."  However, it doesn't say that, all it says is essentially "if you eat a spellcaster's brain, you get spell slots".

You know that is something I have overlooked.

Basically you *can't* obtain Class Features from classes with spellcasting, you only gain their spell slots instead. While Ex/Su/Sp based Class Features are still up for grabs, the untyped ones are not. Like Summon Familiar & Domains. I wonder if that was intentional given the Cleric/Druid spontaneous subs would be dropped as well.