Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)

[Nachofan99]

If the situation given is clear visibility to an arbitrary distance, that is the situation.

What is so off about reading the description of the Spot skill and saying very clearly that you don't use the skill when it is not necessary to use it?

Sometimes a creaure isn't intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see...

The DM may call for a Spot check...

And sometimes a creature is standing out on a flat plane MILES away and is visible and the DM doesn't need to call for a Spot check because visibility is fine to whatever distance.

A DM makes the determination regarding that exact case.  If a given example is "100ft of viability" then that is the given case.  There would clearly be a penalty BEYOND that, and you would apply the -1 per 10ft penalty to such situations, because that is the given case.

Really, it's this hard to determine how SPOT works?  Reading "MAY" is that hard? Reading "SOMETIMES" makes it an issue?

[PhaedrusXY]

Stats-wise if you have a strength of 8 with a tower shield as your sole possession you are in a medium load.  You lose movement speed, have a check penalty and a max dex cap.  Just something to consider.

And why on earth would you care? You don't need Dex to AC, movement speed, or to make checks if you're just going to sit there and have the tower shield provide you total cover, thus blocking LoE. Since dropping something is a free action and picking it back up a move action, you can also still cast just fine.

Yet another example of looking straight past the rules of the game because it doesn't meet the outcome you like.

If you use a Tower Shield without proficiency, you take a penalty to your Dex checks...gee what Dex check would be important?  -10 to Initiative can't possibly matter!  PHB pg. 122
You can't drop a Tower Shield as Free Action, unless you're just carrying it instead of donning it.  Move action to drop it. Move action to don it.  Standard Action to cast. UH OH!  PHB pg. 123

Wizard Fiat.

The move action to drop it isn't a big deal if you're riding a horse/mule/whatever.

If the situation given is clear visibility to an arbitrary distance, that is the situation.

What is so off about reading the description of the Spot skill and saying very clearly that you don't use the skill when it is not necessary to use it?

Sometimes a creaure isn't intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see...

The DM may call for a Spot check...

And sometimes a creature is standing out on a flat plane MILES away and is visible and the DM doesn't need to call for a Spot check because visibility is fine to whatever distance.

A DM makes the determination regarding that exact case.  If a given example is "100ft of viability" then that is the given case.  There would clearly be a penalty BEYOND that, and you would apply the -1 per 10ft penalty to such situations, because that is the given case.

Really, it's this hard to determine how SPOT works?  Reading "MAY" is that hard? Reading "SOMETIMES" makes it an issue?

Spot also determines what the encounter distance is. The distances are retardedly short. Even on a flat plain, I don't think they'd allow you to see someone that far away and start the encounter.

[rubberduck]

i think the wizard is again better at ranged combat because of:
launch bolt+eschew materials 4d6? i guess? 1d8 -> 2d6 -> 3d6 -> 4d6

launch gargantuan crossbow bolts at people as a 0th level spell!
really need to hit? true strike it! <- this means i will actually hit even if you count in the range increments

anything one can think of can be done better by a wizard its that simple

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Spot checks start at 6d6 * 20 feet away in a completely flat, duneless desert. 

[Nachofan99]

The move action might not be a big deal if you're riding, sure, but the non-proficiency penalty to your ride checks *might* be.

Spot *does not* also determine what the encounter distance is;  Spot *may* determine it.  DM Fiat is DM Fiat, just like Wizard Fiat is Wizard Fiat; only use what you want to make the low level Wizard work better than the low level Fighter.

Phaedrus, I can feel your anger, the turmoil.  Join the dark side.  I know it's scary in theory but actually it's not that bad.

How much does a gargantuan bolt weigh?  How much do they cost? (I imagine not that much and I see Eschew materials but still, curious)  How many can you physically carry?  Launch bolt could only fire the bolt 800ft as far as I can tell.  That's 300ft short.  The target entry for the spell is still required even if the material component is ignored, no?

Just to reiterate, I know tier 1 classes are tier 1 and level 1 fighters can get beaten up by riding dogs.  That does not make Wizards automatically demi-gods at level 1 and it doesn't mean that you can just ignore all the rules you want for example, Donning Tower Shields, or using Spot versus not using Spot.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Eschew materials means you don't care about weight, just cost.

[rubberduck]

i can answer that easily normal bolt is 1sp each size increase doubles the prices so it gets to:
1sp -> 2sp > 4sp > 8sp > 1gp6sp
8 sp is the last size you get for free because of eschew materials

and you carry none of them around that is the point of eschew materials. they appear from thin air.

[Nachofan99]

That's nice.  Like I said I see Eschew Materials and was just curious regarding the numbers.

Your range increment is still 80ft.  300ft total to go?


But see, now you bring up Truestrike and Launchbolt, when before it was Sleep/Colorspray and Power Word Pain.  You can't have every single possible spell  known and prepared as a 1st or 2nd or 3rd level Wizard unless you're theoretical.

[rubberduck]

Launch bolt could only fire the bolt 800ft as far as I can tell.  That's 300ft short.

i did not assume it till now but you are shooting at the caster from 1100 feet away?
how do you think you will hit him? a bow with 110' increments still would take -10? to hit?

i think casters chances of getting near you until he can shoot are pretty good at first level and than again the caster has truestrike + launch bolt so he WILL hit

[Nachofan99]

I didn't want to slice the onion on launchbolt.  I wanted to just leave it as is and just let you have it.  When it says "any properties of the crossbow bolt...apply" regarding the attack roll, I have to assume that includes pg. 113 of the PHB regarding oversized weapon use.  That penalty with the range increment means you're needing 20s just like a fighter would, except the fighter would have 2 attacks with Rapid Shot.

[rubberduck]

well first and formost the ... is:
Any properties of the
crossbow bolt (such as magical
abilities, masterwork quality,
and so on) or feats you possess
(such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon
Focus [light crossbow], and so on)
apply

then a bolt is not a weapon you would have attack malus for wielding a gargantuan crossbow

[awaken DM golem]

If we start 1100 feet away

Again, how the hell are you even seeing him, with that -110 to spot you've got.

So I can't see the Top Fuel Dragster, because I'm too far behind the line?
Dang. I need a better TV (master work tool +2).


**


Nacho9 - hey I pre-conceded that Wizard 1 has problems.
Wizard 2 could make a small pile of scrolls, and still be relatively non-CO'ed.
If Wizard 2 has a Scroll of (spell X) then the Fighter has no chance at all.
(spell X) is from a really long list.
  ... it's not the Fighter's fault.
Fighter 6 can have a better Wizard cohort, than the Wizard. That's where the "5" comes in.

Mind you a GIMPED wizard, will have lots of problems.
No towns, no retraining, a very small spellbook, incorrect / inadequate choices.
Gimped Wizard + within Charge range + loses initiative = bad for wizard.

I'd bet real money than a CO build Fighter 4
can beat a Wizard 2 over 50% of the time, regardless of preconditions.
CO being the important part.
Does Meg have a paypal account?

[Nachofan99]

#1 - *Weapon* feats are explicitly called out to work, so there is no interpretation needed.
#2 - "Any property..." is any property.  Size is a property.  It's gargantuan.  You're medium or small.
#3 - Read the spell text "...as if you had fired it from a light crossbow."  Gargantuan bolts come from gargantuan cross bows. Unless...
#3a - Or you can read it as destroying your argument.  Since a light crossbow cannot fire gargantuan sized bolts.

I'll take either 3 or 3a.  

Remember, rules only count for Wizards, but against other classes.  Wizard fiat.



I love you Awaken.  You still let me have some hope!

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Now you're optimized for the tactic of "standing there and hoping for a natural 20".

Of course, silent image has a range of long, so it wouldn't be that difficult to move up without the fighter having any line of sight to you just by creating an illusionary wall of fog.  He can't try to save since he never interacts with it.  The wizard, on the other hand, can see right through it.

If we're allowing familiars, a hawk familiar can just carry 11 pound rocks up to 1200 feet and drop them on the fighter's head.

[awaken DM golem]

I love you Awaken.  You still let me have some hope!

That's CO-board kind of love, folks ... 

[rubberduck]

Nachofan99 fiat:
Read the spell text "...as if you had fired it from a light crossbow."
ok
causing it to fly at a target
of your choice as if you
had fired it from a light
crossbow
you never actually fire anything from anything
ah whatever

you know what... this is completely pointless i can never convince you because you just quote things the way you want so that they help your case and you clearly will not give in at any point
no that is some fiat on your side.

the point remains: everything you can do as a level 1 fighter the wizard will be able to do to and then he has his spells.
for everything a fighter can pull of a wizard can pull of 10 different things that can counter or are better than whatever the fighter does.

wizards wins end of story.

sure you can alter the battleground or the situation so that you give one of them a lucky start and then hope for the instakill but that does not prove anything.

i see this rather often in those threads yeah well lets star with 60 feet between them lets give them a buff round?
what is this shit?
when a wizard gets a buff round so should a fighter get a round to don his armor...
thats only fair if you come with your class abilities to the fight i should be allowed the same.
your class features is to wear heavy armor mine is to cast spells so...

by the end of the day wizards can outfight outnumber outmaneuver and out-everything fighters because wizards fucking wield magic while fighters wield pointy things.

it really puzzels me how can one not see that?

[JaronK]

To be clear, using exactly the gear and spells I normally have as a Wizard (not something made for a duel), I'd likely have a Riding Dog (they come pre trained for battle, and I usually play a small race) and a Tower Shield.  Since I'm behind the shield in full cover, if you sit there and shoot you just run out of arrows.  When you get close (since arrows don't work), I put the shield down and cast Color Spray while my mount moves up to close range on you.  Then power word pain.  Then go back, get the shield, and ride away.  You lose. 

Didn't have to adapt my spells at all, and since we started at 1,100 feet away anyway intiative didn't matter.  This is not Schrodinger's Wizard.  That's actually a standard Wizard I tend to play.

If I were making a dueling Wizard at level 1, I'd just sell my spellbook for 5kgp and purchase a swarm of Magebreed Riding Dogs and a Tower Shield.  I win.

JaronK

[Nachofan99]

How are you immune to a potential hit (for 8+ points of damage and possible death - can't say without a character sheet) and or crit (with a massive amount of potential damage) from a long bow during the first round of combat when you lost initiative and don't have cover?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Tower shield gives cover

And honestly, if your argument is "I might be able to roll a natural 20 on the first round", that's not much in your favor - we've already established that wizards are better, since anyone can do that.

[rubberduck]

see thats the point you dont have your shield but the fighter has his bow out
fighter fiat

and i have to correct myself from earlier each range increment and we are talking about 10 here imposes a -2 malus on the attack
so you start at 1100 feet win initiative take -20 on your attack.

Range Increment
Any attack at less than this distance is not penalized for range. However, each full range increment imposes a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot out to ten range increments.