Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)

[Agita]

Guess which one the wizard is.

C'mon, guess.

The one who fights a hundred-odd monks at the same time and ends up winning anyway, while looking cool and making the monks look like idiots. Just my guess.

That's why you're chaotic awesome. . .

Oh, and let's not forget said wizard is beating them using the exact fighting style they're supposed to be good at.

[awaken DM golem]

... not to derail the (happy) thread ...
Oh wait, I usually do that.


I was thinking about it, and
if you allow Leadership
and you are at or above 9th level, so the cohort is at 6th level or above
I'd take ANY sucky class
with a Psi-Artificer as the cohort
but only so long as the Tier 1 class has to take something else as their cohort.

(this is more a problem of the Psi-X bad translation of the Artificer than anything else)
But I doubt it would fly.

OK go back to (happy) thread.
 

[juton]

@Awaken DM Golem

You could give a Commoner Leadership and they'd be able to do the same thing. That doesn't make a Monk not suck, it just means Tier 1 characters are awesome and that you need someone else to fight your battles for you.

A Wizard with something like a Sorcerer, Crusader or Factotum Cohort will be much stronger than a Monk with even a Gestalt Wizard/Archivist. The Monk's cohort will be powerful, but it will be to many levels behind to make up for the Monk's suck.

[Sunic_Flames]

Any attack that hits someone who uses a d4 for HP is meaningful

This is either wrong or intellectually deceptive, depending on whether or not the error is intentional.

The difference between D4 and D10 is 3 * (level + 1) just going off of straight dice. However, as you get Con mod to that, this is not as big of a difference as it seems. Most likely, after the initial level or two the difference comes out to be beatstick has a third more HP.

However, there are several factors to consider.

1: Wizards are rather SAD. Even on 25 PB they can run Con 14, have their Int high or maxed, and not lose anything. Meanwhile the beatstick classes? MAD. As a result the Wizard might have a better starting Con score, which would close that gap somewhat.

2: Wizards are fairly gear independent, but can make their own gear. As a result, the Wizard has far more cash to devote to secondary purposes like Con boosting at any given time, and will therefore hit any given breakpoint sooner. Until maxed out, this again means more Con for the Wizard. And if you're paying attention at home, it only takes a 6 Con differential to close the gap to... 3 HP. More likely you only end up 2-4 ahead.

3: Wizards are very good at not being hit. They don't have to be right in front of the enemy to be relevant, they don't have to move 5 feet or less a round to stay relevant and most importantly, they get real defenses. So that stuff the bag of HP just had to eat the Wizard can avoid. As a result the Wizard's HP are effectively much higher and get diminished much less easily. Though just being 2 Con ahead and getting a Blur effect on your person is good enough to make your effective HP the same.

Beatstick boy has 214.5 at level 20 with standard build. Wizard has 151.5. If he has 2 Con higher he has 171.5. Blur means he only gets hit 4 times out of 5, making his HP effectively a quarter higher. 214.375, which would be marginally lower except they both round down to 214.

At level 3 it's 27 vs 15, which becomes 18 after the Con and is effectively 22.5. Though at this point False Life is 8.5, so that would work better.

Not going to illustrate for all the other levels, but suffice it to say that the Wizard matches raw numbers with minimal effort, but is in a much better position to begin with due to not needing to beat monsters in direct stat contests so it doesn't really matter.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Plus, mirror image.  Naked monk has no way of seeing the real wizard, so has at best a 50% chance of hitting him.

[skydragonknight]

At least give the monk the option to take the Mage Slayer feats.

[woodenbandman]

Hi, I'm a swift action!

[Lycanthromancer]

And how do mageslayer feats help when the wizard hits him with a solid fog and Evan's tentacles of forced intrusion from 70 feet away, then uses the two rounds he's trapped to box him up with acid fog, and dimension lock?

Not that you'd need nearly that much to take a monk down. We'll assume it's a druid/monk or a psywar/monk to make it slightly more of a challenge.

[Negative Zero]

Druid 19/Monk 1 it is. Now we've got a fight.

[Emy]

And how do mageslayer feats help when the wizard hits him with a solid fog and Evan's tentacles of forced intrusion from 70 feet away, then uses the two rounds he's trapped to box him up with acid fog, and dimension lock?

Not that you'd need nearly that much to take a monk down. We'll assume it's a druid/monk or a psywar/monk to make it slightly more of a challenge.

The mage slayer feats don't help at all, because this monk is core.

That's short for hardcore!

[Lycanthromancer]

Monks are about as hardcore as Michael Jackson on the teacup-ride at Eurodisney. (And no, Captain Eo doesn't count.)

[Midnight_v]

Druid 19/Monk 1 it is. Now we've got a fight.

Monks are about as hardcore as Michael Jackson on the teacup-ride at Eurodisney. (And no, Captain Eo doesn't count.) 

This thread is hardcore LOl

[SorO_Lost]

Monks are about as hardcore as Michael Jackson on the teacup-ride at Eurodisney. (And no, Captain Eo doesn't count.)

But, Michael Jackson scares little kids. Monks don't...

***

@Sunic_Flames
Using a d4 as a title was a bit narrow. I was thinking more along of lines of con is your 2nd~3rd highest stat, probably no racial boosts, no level boosts, maybe a +2 inherent bonus at best, you're 3~4 points behind a dedicated meleer's HD and so on. Now compare that guessamated total to an optimized monk's damage output and tell me if a blow that hits could be meaningful.

1. I got str 8, dex 11, con 14, int 18, wis 8, cha 8 for PB 25. The "and not lose anything." Seems misplaced unless you got a +2 racial on int for that. But how is that less MAD than a beatstick wanting str & con and there being a heck of a lot more racial boosts in higher numbers for those two stats?

2. Everyone requires items. It's 3E. The wizard is still pretty gear dependent outside of that too. For one thing there is that 50k+ book of theirs... Then of course their focus for spells like Contingency & Shapechange. And the wizard being required to take Eschew Materials to ever cast Black Tentacles, Ray of Stupidity, or Wall of Iron, etc. would make them even more feat tight.

Also converting WBL to GP then crafting from there so you wealth is above WBL standards kinda breaks the point of WBL to start with. Last time I checked it's your total wealth value, not you have X gp to buy flesh to salt scrolls and ignore the guideline.

[Sunic_Flames]

+6 enhancement items are cheap. 'Optimized' Monk still has low damage as most of his damage comes from a caster casting a spell on him. So he'll do something like... 20% damage, maybe, if he hits (single digit percentage odds).

The only thing you really lose out on there is will saves, except who uses will save effects against a Wizard? Alternately you could start at 14 Dex and only lose 1 Int to do so. But you're still missing the point.

Wizards get inherent stat bonuses for free. Didn't you get the memo? Or they could actually cast Wish, and ride the Gravy Train. Now you're just making up stuff. Stop that.

And stop pulling a dicefuck. No, wealth doesn't disappear into a black hole just because you utilized some of it intelligently. No need for wealth loops, just the fact you have the exact items you need for half price or less is enough.

Edit: Mage Slayer Monks are owned by 5' steps, assuming the Monk can get adjacent in the first place. No reach weapons for you.

[Vasja]

1. I got str 8, dex 11, con 14, int 18, wis 8, cha 8 for PB 25. The "and not lose anything." Seems misplaced unless you got a +2 racial on int for that. But how is that less MAD than a beatstick wanting str & con and there being a heck of a lot more racial boosts in higher numbers for those two stats?

Still not really MAD. 8/11/14/18/8/8 is not so bad for a wizard, but 18/11/14/8/8/8 sucks for a beatstick. Sure, you have the melee end covered, but you really want that 16 Con for a the extra padding. You want some higher Dex and Wis for your weaker saves, and some Int so you can actually DO something outside of a party. A wizard doesn't need any of these things.

2. Everyone requires items. It's 3E. The wizard is still pretty gear dependent outside of that too. For one thing there is that 50k+ book of theirs... Then of course their focus for spells like Contingency & Shapechange. And the wizard being required to take Eschew Materials to ever cast Black Tentacles, Ray of Stupidity, or Wall of Iron, etc. would make them even more feat tight.

Also converting WBL to GP then crafting from there so you wealth is above WBL standards kinda breaks the point of WBL to start with. Last time I checked it's your total wealth value, not you have X gp to buy flesh to salt scrolls and ignore the guideline.

The wizard is not gear dependent in the slightest. Buying the 10k Boccob's Blessed Book is the only real investment you have to make. And like foci, things like this are a one-time investment. You never need to upgrade or replace them. And what do you need as a wizard outside of that? Do you really need that Metamagic Rod of Extend? or that Cloak of Resistance? or Boccob's Blessed Book? They sure are nice, but in the end they are not necessary. Take away that fighter's Mithril Full Plate, and he starts crying.

Also while using tricks to greatly increase the amount of actual GP you have is stupid, crafting your own gear with the money you DO have is completely legitimate. If I'm a level 3 Wizard, crafting myself two level 1 Pearls of Power for the price of one is fair. Buying a candle of invocations and having genies gate me in money is what is not. These reasons and more are why they are not gear dependent.

[Sunic_Flames]

Superior Resistance says hi.

[Anklebite]

Take away that fighter's Mithril Full Plate wizards spellbook, and he starts crying.

...really? if we are talking about which one class gets the most upset from losing a single item.... well, im afraid the wizard loses that round.  and if you really want to get nitpicky, a monk can use ye old vow of poverty, and the wizard can't

DISCLAIMER: dispite now and then ragging on wizards, and finding monks fun, I have not, nor ever will believe that a monk is better than a wizard in any way.

by the way, I can't help but notice that wizards don't have spot/listen as class skills, but monks do, in addition to hide/move silently....

unless the wizard is very paranoid (yes, sunic, i know, they ALL are, and they have thirteen and a half million ways to kill a monk while blindfolded strapped down and tied to a balor while gargling mouthwash, while killing the balor in the same round without taking any damage at all even including the balor nimbus, and that his spellbook is impossible for anyone but him or a better spellcaster to get at), a monk might be able to sneak up on a sleeping one and ruin/steal his spellbook 

on a tangent, anyone know a way to make a spellbook attacking monk?   

perhaps acid flasks and alch flasks work well against a boccob's blessed book?

[Vasja]

Take away that fighter's Mithril Full Plate wizards spellbook, and he starts crying.

...really? if we are talking about which one class gets the most upset from losing a single item.... well, im afraid the wizard loses that round.  and if you really want to get nitpicky, a monk can use ye old vow of poverty, and the wizard can't

A few things:
-A wizard is automatically given a spellbook as part of his class abilities.
-A wizard that does not have some sort of backup in case his main book gets stolen is a fool
-A wizard that does not have ANY contingencies in place for when his spellbook is attacked is not playing the 18+ INT that they have.

And as a note, I was talking about things that you wind up using some of your WBL to obtain. A wizard does not need to invest any money into his spell book until he starts learning 7th level spells, and he has plenty of money to keep backups. No class abilities grant you +5/+5 defending quarterstaves, or +5 mithril chain shirts.

[Vasja]

Double-post. How do I delete this?

[Anklebite]

not going to quote myself, as that is silly.

reread my post, and you will see that I agree that a wizard's spellbook is well protected.

but tell me, doesn't it cost gold to scribe scrolls into a spellbook? isn't it's amount of pages limited? the gold cost, while neglibable (most groups pretty much ignore em), are still there.  costs 100gp per page, according to PHB page 179. while you don't have to pay that for spells earned by level gain, any extras at all cost gold.

and, in addition, is says no where in the wizard class description that you automatically get one as a class ability. it simply states that you need to use one.

lastly, Vow of Poverty has a very short list of items you are ALLOWED to have. A spellbook is not one of them.