Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)

[PhaedrusXY]

but tell me, doesn't it cost gold to scribe scrolls into a spellbook?

Not for the free ones he gets when he levels up. Even that is enough to whip the dogshit out of a monk. And by using Secret Page, even in the most non-abusive way possible, you can basically make a copy of your spellbook for free, and keep one in a safe hiding place.

isn't it's amount of pages limited?

So? He can just start another one. Also, once he has a Boccob's, that isn't usually a problem.

and, in addition, is says no where in the wizard class description that you automatically get one as a class ability. it simply states that you need to use one.

In the wizard class description it says he starts with a spellbook. Reread it.

[Eldariel]

unless the wizard is very paranoid (yes, sunic, i know, they ALL are, and they have thirteen and a half million ways to kill a monk while blindfolded strapped down and tied to a balor while gargling mouthwash, while killing the balor in the same round without taking any damage at all even including the balor nimbus, and that his spellbook is impossible for anyone but him or a better spellcaster to get at), a monk might be able to sneak up on a sleeping one and ruin/steal his spellbook 

A high-level Wizard pretty much has to either be paranoid or dead. That's how lethal the D&D world is. As a corollary, a high-level Monk cannot even exist unless he's glued his lips to a Wizard's ass.

[Vasja]

Boccob's Blessed Book removes the cost of scribing pages. Hence why it is such a great investment. So the ONLY gold cost to copying your own spellbook is the cost of the spellbook itself.

[Anklebite]

I really do agree with the both of you on this... but Phae, can you please read the rest of the post before hitting the quote button?   

anyways, that specific argument was on whether or not a wizard works when using Vow of Poverty.  the short answer is "no". I fully understand and agree that wizards are the epitome of tier one, possibly better than druids and clerics.  no one can win against them, except a better spellcaster. but it is ever so fun to mess with one who is not 100% prepared for everything, as you can always find some random tangent to screw them over with 

[Anklebite]

I really do agree with the both of you on this... but Phae, can you please read the rest of the post before hitting the quote button?   

anyways, that specific argument was on whether or not a wizard works when using Vow of Poverty.  the short answer is "no". I fully understand and agree that wizards are the epitome of tier one, possibly better than druids and clerics.  no one can win against them, except a better spellcaster. but it is ever so fun to mess with one who is not 100% prepared for everything, as you can always find some random tangent to screw them over with 

EDIT: and Boccob's Blessed book is not allowed by Vow of Poverty. yes, I know it makes scribing free, but you can't have one 

[PhaedrusXY]

I really do agree with the both of you on this... but Phae, can you please read the rest of the post before hitting the quote button?   

anyways, that specific argument was on whether or not a wizard works when using Vow of Poverty.  the short answer is "no".

Who gives a crap? That feat sucks, and no sane wizard would even WANT to take it, so it is a moot point. And it sure didn't seem like VoP was all that you were talking about. I read your post. You were trying to argue how much a spellbook costs a wizard, for the WBL argument, it seemed to me. Or are you just debating yourself? I don't see anyone else even talking about VoP...

[Anklebite]

lol, this is what I get for reading many different forum topics at once..... I think I will call it "phantom flame sydrome" xD

I do believe that my sillyness has cost this topic half a dozen posts 

[Sunic_Flames]

...really? if we are talking about which one class gets the most upset from losing a single item.... well, im afraid the wizard loses that round.  and if you really want to get nitpicky, a monk can use ye old vow of poverty, and the wizard can't

VoP is A Trap. Being able to use utter shit is not a pro of anything. Also, the Wizard can actually protect his own stuff.

DISCLAIMER: dispite now and then ragging on wizards, and finding monks fun, I have not, nor ever will believe that a monk is better than a wizard in any way.

by the way, I can't help but notice that wizards don't have spot/listen as class skills, but monks do, in addition to hide/move silently....

unless the wizard is very paranoid (yes, sunic, i know, they ALL are, and they have thirteen and a half million ways to kill a monk while blindfolded strapped down and tied to a balor while gargling mouthwash, while killing the balor in the same round without taking any damage at all even including the balor nimbus, and that his spellbook is impossible for anyone but him or a better spellcaster to get at), a monk might be able to sneak up on a sleeping one and ruin/steal his spellbook 

on a tangent, anyone know a way to make a spellbook attacking monk?   

perhaps acid flasks and alch flasks work well against a boccob's blessed book?

This entire bit is horrifically false. See, mundane stealth skills are incredibly limited. Especially on something so MAD so as to not have room for a high Int to get more skill points. Also, all sorts of things automatically detect anyone who hasn't made themselves immune. Like Mindsight for example, off the Mindbender dip that costs nothing.

Everyone alive and adventuring in the D&D world is... well they would be paranoid, except that they actually are out to get them, so those sorts of precautions are justified. The ones that drop their guard? D&D is one big model for Natural Selection. Three guesses as to what happens to them. The first two don't count. In any case, you don't get the spellbook unless you're a better caster, and even then you can just win outright instead of preventing them from recharging (but they can still unload what they currently have on you).

Meanwhile the Monk? No real means of protecting himself at all. He's stuck sleeping out in the open like a tool. If someone does attack him, what, is his Flurry of Misses for Piddly Shit going to stop the enemy?

Stop making up lies.

[Midnight_v]

I'm amazed that people actually show up and defend the monk. . .
Rembemer that "Sir Gucadumo (or whatevers) joker monk". I'm just like damn.
Damn I love barbarians as a class but even I have to be reasonable when confronted with a nuclear bomb, a hurricane, a wizard, or CoDzilla.
It like they want it to work soooo bad, that they block out everything to the contrary. Just ridiculous.  

[Midnight_v]

...and another thing....
If there's really some assholes out there who thing "ahh I'll just take his spellbook" realize:
The complete arcane has a complete instruction set for tattoing your spells directly onto your person.
S.. therfore ...f....u...

[Sunic_Flames]

I'm amazed that people actually show up and defend the monk. . .
Rembemer that "Sir Gucadumo (or whatevers) joker monk". I'm just like damn.
Damn I love barbarians as a class but even I have to be reasonable when confronted with a nuclear bomb, a hurricane, a wizard, or CoDzilla.
It like they want it to work soooo bad, that they block out everything to the contrary. Just ridiculous.  

The anti Monks are just a variant of the anti Fighters. Active delusion is the name of the game. And they get those names by blatantly lying to trick people into thinking useless shit is worth a shit, instead of fixing that shit.

[Anklebite]

Ya know, if you read my posts, you would see that I agree with everything you are saying.... in fact, you even quoted where I adressed this to you. I was not trying to make it a "yes, but" type argument. my one point even slightly to the contrary is that monks are funny to use when the wizard is not that great at setting up defenses. yes, monks are entirely worthless compared to any mage type class, I get that and have known it for a long time.  and I also get that YOUR wizard is immune to absolutely everything and every tactic in the world, except perhaps a better wizard. 

(minor) wall of text over with 

[Midnight_v]

Sorry I wasnt' directing that 100% at you just a general statement. 

[Anklebite]

ah....

sorry for misinterpreting then 

[Sunic_Flames]

Ya know, if you read my posts, you would see that I agree with everything you are saying.... in fact, you even quoted where I adressed this to you. I was not trying to make it a "yes, but" type argument. my one point even slightly to the contrary is that monks are funny to use when the wizard is not that great at setting up defenses. yes, monks are entirely worthless compared to any mage type class, I get that and have known it for a long time.  and I also get that YOUR wizard is immune to absolutely everything and every tactic in the world, except perhaps a better wizard. 

(minor) wall of text over with 

'My' Wizard is immune to mooks yes. Monks are worthless yes. Not just compared to mages but overall. Try a better caster, yes.

Now, what's the point of you claiming you can beat up the paradoxes that are stupid Wizards?

[SorO_Lost]

Sure, you have the melee spellcasting end covered, but you really want that 16 Con for a the extra padding. You want some higher Dex and Wis for your weaker saves, and some Int Str so you can actually DO carry something outside of a party. A wizard your mom doesn't need any of these things, she has me.

Fixed... Wait, what?

Since we're talking about the really lame version of beatsticks. It's kinda expected for them to be worthless outside of bashing things with a hammer. Just mark int as a min area and max out the only thing they can try to do. You can also take the option to run around with 14 con and just pick up one of those DR crystals or adamantine armor to make up the difference. Both are fairly cheap. And if we look at the useful beatsticks, like a crusader or warblade you need even less. They can come with attack-healing, save boosters, maneuvers that can be useful out of combat, more base skill points, and so on that would let then run with lower than average ability scores.

Do you really need that Metamagic Rod of Extend? or that Cloak of Resistance? or Boccob's Blessed Book?

Yes? The wizard last time I checked has two bad saves, running around with a 20 in them is not going to just fix everything. If you're fine with +11 on two saves I'm fine with calling you dead.

Who needs to invest in protecting some flimsy sheets of paper from simple things like fire, rain, thieves, a monk hiding under the wizard's bed waiting for them to study, and needs to invest in a backup book just in case and so on? At least an enchanted weapon has built in protection from everything short of stealing & direct attacks and armor is immune to both of those. Both are pretty common too.

So yeah. On the point of item dependency. Like it to not, the wizard requires quite a few and to me more so than a monk (whom would have higher base saves than the example wizard), incarnum classes, ToBers, pixie warlocks, whisper gnome rogues armed with rocks, the masochist-style of AoOers, and possible bards since they can just do a snowflake wardance of dragonfire inspiration with a half-rotted stick while singing and still be more effective than a monk with items. Maybe a bit more than clerics too since they trade off the book for two sticks tied together and gain the DMM(persistent) feat. ...Druids can just run around naked and still kick everyone's ass while sleeping too

@Sunic_Flames, only 20%? Yeah they lack THF, but they have the highest damaging melee weapon in the game...

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Hoard gullet.  It's like a bag of holding in a first level spell.  Keep your spellbook in it.  Keep your miscellaneous junk in it.  As long as you don't need it in combat, it'll be perfectly safe from any/all beatstick intervention.



A wizard's carrying capacity is 100 pounds or 10 cubic feet/caster level.  That is to say, far greater than the monk, fighter, or barbarian's.

[Sunic_Flames]

Adamantine armor does jack shit, aside from slowing you down. The crystals don't last very long. DR x/-, max (x * 10) a day means it's probably all drained in fight 1.

Also, define bad saves. Because the difference is 6 points, maximum but the Wizard is 1-3 points ahead and 1-25k gold ahead at any given time just off one all day spell. A second long duration spell out of a low level slot gives another 2-5 to everything. Most likely the Wizard's 'bad' save is as good as the beatstick's 'good' save. Just off those two. Don't get me started on other such fun effects that boost saves.

What kind of dumbass Wizard is sleeping out in the open? Oh, level 1? No particular hiding skills. Look under your bed first. And for fuck's sake, stop insulting the board's intelligence. At least use a Rogue, so he can actually threaten the level 1 Wizard.

Monks have at best, average saves. They get 12 base but add jack shit to that, as all their saves are tied to secondary stats, and as the most cash strapped class in the game they may not be able to afford a proper cloak, especially if they fall into the 'good save' trap, the 'thinks he's a caster killer because of SR' trap, the 'thinks he's good naked instead of the most equipment dependent class in the game' trap... all of which, based on your post YOU are falling into and more. End result is the Monk is lucky to break +20 to any save... which is so 5 levels ago for the caster. And that's not good at all, because it means iterative probability kills you any and every fight where the enemies pay any attention to you at all. So you either get ignored while doing your Flurry of Misses for Piddly Shit or die constantly.

Most of your damage comes from bonus damage. That means Str (+ two handed weapon) and lots of extra attack bonus to PA away. You know, those things Monks don't get. Now, you could power dip around, and probably get your base damage up to 4d10 or something, but you'll add almost nothing to that, and you can't get any higher without leeching greater mighty whallop off a caster. I was generous and gave him 30 damage a hit, even though I expected more like 15-20 (which would be 10%, maybe). By comparison, even sword and board can manage around 40 or so with better accuracy, and no one's claiming that's viable.

[Eldariel]

Has anyone noticed how animal companions are practically identical to Monks? Medium BAB, extra attacks (Natural, Flurry), all good saves (some anyways), low average damage, Power Attackable light weapons, high speed, random armor bonus (Wis/Natural Armor/whatever), racial features/bonus feats for Grappling/Tripping/whatever, magic reliance (in animal companion's case, buff spells - in Monk's case, a golfbag of magic items). The only difference is that one is an extra class feature while the other is a class. And one has the free buffer (the main class) alongside to negate its problems, while the other doesn't.

[Emy]

...and another thing....
If there's really some assholes out there who thing "ahh I'll just take his spellbook" realize:
The complete arcane has a complete instruction set for tattoing your spells directly onto your person.
S.. therfore ...f....u...

It's expensive and limited. (Less so with the Geomancer ability that makes spells take 1 page each.)

Still, it's a great way to have your Bigby's Assertive Finger spells available at all times.