Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)

[awaken DM golem]

It's been done. It's called The Same Game Test. You can google it if you want.

Funny enough, the following is how we gauge level:

    * Monk Balance Level - If a class wins less than 50% of the level 5 SGT, it is very likely a monk level class.
    * Fighter Balance Level - If a class wins around 50% of the level 5 SGT but less than 50% of the level 10 SGT, it is very likely a fighter level class.
    * Rogue Balance Level - If wins around 50% of the level 5 and 10 SGTs, and does not fall behind significantly on the level 15 SGT, it is very likely a rogue level class.
    * Wizard Balance Level - If a class wins significantly more than 50% of the level 10 and 15 SGTs, it is very likely a wizard level class.

Oh that's what that is ... hmm ... I'll hafta find time to review ...

Wizard 2 vs. Fighter 5 is what I've been saying around this thread.
I suppose an un-opted Wizard 5 might not win 50% of the level 5 SGT.
CO'ed Wizard 5 is a different story.
 

[grautry]

You know, I'm seeing a ton of complaints here about the Schrödinger's Wizards and "show a spell list of a wizard prepared for everything" complaints and other kinds of bullshit.

But see, this does not actually point out any sort of flaw in the reasoning of "Wizards are more powerful" camp.

The fact that people can come up with all those dozens of ways to beat every conceivable situation just shows how flexible and powerful wizards(and other casters) are. But, ultimately, that's not the point.

To put it in the simplest terms possible - a caster doesn't have to be prepared for everything.

He just needs to be prepared for more than the fighter.

And this is the case. A decent - not even perfectly optimized or anything - spell list can handily deal with just about everything that your average DM can throw at you. Or, with Divination, be prepared for literally anything that is not psychotically overpowered in comparison to the wizard's expected CR(and with some cheese - even then). On the other hand, your average Fighter simply won't have the same sort of flexibility because at his best, he simply won't be able to match the power and the flexibility of your average spell list.

See, in almost all cases the discussions go like this: Fighter X is built using feats Y, items Z and uses tactics T. The response is almost invariably: then the wizard uses spell Z, X or Y.

Which can be more easily expressed thus: Fighters have builds. Wizards have spell lists.

That is all.

[rubberduck]

show a wizard prepared for everything you say?
hmm not on level one but wiz5/mage of the arcane10 order with spellpool has potentially each and every spell to his disposal.
i think at level 12 you have spellpool III

[Mushroom]

show a wizard prepared for everything you say?
hmm not on level one but wiz5/mage of the arcane10 order with spellpool has potentially each and every spell to his disposal.
i think at level 12 you have spellpool III

Throw in SCM

[lans]

I shoot your familiar

flies to high. as already stated earlier it could fly so high that you cant shoot it and then still drop stones or something on you

Don't things only drop 200 ft, or so, a round?

No. There is a limit, but it is (significantly IIRC) higher than that. And why does that matter, anyway?

Because if things only drop so far a round then I can either shoot the familiar or step out of the way of the falling object.

[lans]

This ends up being both a rules and a physics question. The short answer is, “In a single round, you fall far enough to hit the ground in the vast majority circumstances that come up in the game.”

Here’s the long answer: A falling character accelerates at a rate of 32 feet per second per second.

Do you have a source for this? I know in real life things fall at 9.8m/s^2, but I recall D&D having weaker gravity from a thread from years back.

[grautry]

show a wizard prepared for everything you say?
hmm not on level one but wiz5/mage of the arcane10 order with spellpool has potentially each and every spell to his disposal.
i think at level 12 you have spellpool III

Sure. But, while I don't have any objective evidence, anecdotal evidence(for me) seems to be that MatAO is one of those classes that I'll always take on "my next character", and besides, it's more of a Sorcerer PrC anyway. Additionally how many situations are there really that a Limited Wish or two, prepared for emergencies, can't cover?

But yes, adding to the point above, if you sacrifice some raw power for flexibility, you can, actually, have a wizard that's prepared for everything. Show me a fighter who can do that(without obvious bullshit like exploiting cheese loops).

[Saxony]

This ends up being both a rules and a physics question. The short answer is, “In a single round, you fall far enough to hit the ground in the vast majority circumstances that come up in the game.”

Here’s the long answer: A falling character accelerates at a rate of 32 feet per second per second.

Do you have a source for this? I know in real life things fall at 9.8m/s^2, but I recall D&D having weaker gravity from a thread from years back.

Actually, that was a gigantic misconception from poorly written rules/searching abilities.

In DnD, everyone has regular earth gravity. The problem was people were referencing the rules for flying creatures that fall out of the sky (having greater air resistance because they are assumed to flap their wings while trying to get airborne again).

[rubberduck]

ok here it is: it can be found in the dnd FAQ page 112
Falling Speed

How far does a character fall in a single round? If my
griffon-riding character falls off his mount 300 feet up, how
long do other characters have to catch him?
This ends up being both a rules and a physics question. The
short answer is, “In a single round, you fall far enough to hit
the ground in the vast majority circumstances that come up in
the game.”
Here’s the long answer: A falling character accelerates at a
rate of 32 feet per second per second. What that means is that
every second, a character’s “falling speed” increases by 32 feet.
The distance he falls in that second is equal to the average of
his falling speeds at the beginning of that second and at the end
of that second. Thus, during the first second he falls 16 feet (the
average of 0 feet and 32 feet, which are his speeds at the start
and end of that second). During the next second he falls 48 feet
(the average of 32 feet and 64 feet). He falls 80 feet during the
third second, 112 feet the fourth second, 144 feet the fifth
second, and 176 feet the sixth second. That’s a grand total of
576 feet fallen in the first round alone, hence the short answer
given above—the number of falls occurring in any campaign
longer than this is probably pretty small. For ease of play, you
could simply use 500 feet as a nice round number—it’s easier
to remember.
Of course, the character falls even farther the next round,
although acceleration soon ends due to the resistance of air on
the falling body (this is what’s called terminal velocity). If the
Sage remembers his high-school physics, terminal velocity for
a human body is roughly 120 mph (equivalent to a speed of
1,200 feet per round, or 200 feet per second); thus, the
character’s falling speed hits its maximum in the first second of
the second round. It’s safe to say that after 2 rounds the
character will have fallen nearly 2,000 feet, and will fall
another 1,200 feet per round thereafter.
In the example you give, other characters would clearly
have no more than a round to react, and it’s possible they’d
have even less time. Remember that despite the sequential
nature of D&D combat actions, things are happening very
quickly—virtually simultaneously, in many cases. As a DM,
I’d probably allow every character a chance to react to a long
fall (such as the one you describe), as long as their action
occurs before 1 full round has passed from the start of the fall.
(As a side note, that’s why feather fall allows its caster to cast
it even when it isn’t her turn—otherwise, adjudicating its
timing would be a nightmare.) The difference between “you
watch the character fall all the way to the ground before you
can react” and “the character starts to fall, what do you do?” is
really just up to the DM’s sense of fun and fair play. Off the top
of my head, I’d say that anything up to 50 or 60 feet is clearly
too fast to react to (barring a readied action, of course), and
anything that approaches 250 feet or more should probably
allow characters some chance to react, but that’s purely a
personal opinion.
Whatever decision you make, try to make the same
decision every time, so that players know what to expect. If this
situation comes up a lot in your game, it’s probably worth
creating a house rule so you don’t have to try to remember
what you did last time. (If your campaign routinely features
300-foot falls, your characters might want to invest in some
rings of feather falling!)
Now, if you start altering certain assumptions—such as the
force of gravity, or the density of air that’s resisting the falling
character, or even the mass of the falling character—these
calculations become less useful. Yet, unless your numbers are
much different than the standard values, you can still use these
as benchmarks.

[Gunhaven]

Not advancing the debate of Fighters vs Wizards and just agreeing with everyone else who thought the video was awesome.

[Sunic_Flames]

So I was trying to remember where Empyreal Armor was. This thread came up on a Google search.

A core-only Wizard doesn't need to know he's fighting a Monk, his basic tactics against a random opponent are more than sufficient; Contingency (or Shaped Anti-Magic Field or Invisibility or Astral Projection or Foresight or whatever) means the Monk never has a chance to hit the Wizard, True Strike means the Monk's Touch AC = 1, Spell Penetration + CL boosters mean Monk's Spell Resistance = 1 and Monk's MAD means that his saves are 50/50 (and that he's spent so much money on his stats that his offense is still nil). So even if the Wizard hasn't used divinations and doesn't know he'd face a Monk (a completely valid assumption considering that no Wizard gives a fuck about Monks) and the Monk has been preparing for the fight his whole life, the Wizard still wins with two-three fingers. Trying is reserved for things that can do something other than complain about their bad breath.

Abbreviation: Monks make for great dancing monkeys. They even have perform in class. And their breath smells.

EDIT: What a spectacularly awesome video.

 

And with awesomeness like this, I think I'll revive it.

[carnivore]

BOED page 112

Empyreal: This exquisitely crafted armor or shield, favored
by celestial champions of good, is often set with precious gems
and adorned with images of powerful archons, eladrins, or
guardinals. The wearer can transfer all or part of its enhancement
bonus to a sacred bonus on saving throws. The wearer
decides to make the transfer on his turn, and the choice remains
in effect until his next turn. Any evil creature wearing empyreal
armor or holding an empyreal shield is sickened (–2 penalty on
attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and skill checks) for as
long as the armor is worn or the shield is held (no saving throw).
Moderate abjuration and necromancy [good]; CL 9th; Craft
Magic Arms and Armor, resistance, shield of faith, sicken evil; Price
+2 bonus.


 

[Sunic_Flames]

So it doesn't work on bracers then? That's too bad.

Edit: So I read all the fail. Pretty standard stuff, where the Wizard is just a normal guy doing a normal day's work and is not treating the Fighter or the Monk as anything special and might not even be aware of their existence beforehand whereas the Fighter or the Monk have devoted their entire lives to killing the Wizard. Literally, that's their sole purpose in existence. Everything they have done, are doing, and will do is aimed towards that singular goal.

And in typical beatstick vs God fashion, they still EPIC FAIL.

And yet despite this, there continue to be mouth breathing fuckwits who continually attempt to defend them.

It never ends, does it?

[Tshern]

No, it truly doesn't.

[SorO_Lost]

To be fair I oppose the method of against's tactics, and sometimes chime in with other stuff. After all magic has more weaknesses than most would think.
A: Generic unstated Wizard casts Mage Flare
B: Fool, my fighter is immune to that! See my build and behold it's immunities to 99% of the spells ever printed!
A: Did I say Mega Flare? _bullshit here_ and so you see he really used Eden's Eternal Breath!
It isn't a fighter vs wizard argument at all. It is TO blank vs here-is-the-stat-sheet-to-metagame-and-abuse-the-holes blank.
The first blank wins every time, even if it is a fighter and the second one is a wizard.

But every ignores that and goes wild with TO tactics on the wizard. Then all the fors are stupid enough to fall into it and post builds to try and counter it. Yeah not very productive at all, but hey the thread it's self was. COP out was killed here I believe.

[X-Codes]

Yeah, COP isn't a serious answer to any kind of problem in practical D&D.  The *real* solution to "zomg, I'm being attacked by a FIGHTER" is to cast something along the lines of Time Stop or Forcecage and Analyze Dweomer.  One round and you learn the active effects on them, and another minute or so you learn the effects of all the items they're wearing.  If you don't think a Wizard can't pin down even the best Fighter or Monk builds for something on the order of 12-13 rounds, you're not trying hard enough.  If all else fails, they likely have at least 3 maximized time stops available for casting.

Anyway, once that's out of the way you simply pull out the appropriate spell(s) needed to kill the unfortunate bastard and be done with it, or pick your favorite killing spell and use an Antimagic Ray to negate the item granting immunity to it (if it's a temporary buff, then it's even easier: blast him with an MDJ).  Afterwards, cast Rope Trick and hide for a few hours until you get your spells back.

[BeholderSlayer]

Don't need custom for antimagic, Antimagic Torq (or whatever it's called) is pretty cheap.

[Solo]

It produces a 1/day 10 ft emanation AMF right?

[Sunic_Flames]

Don't need custom for antimagic, Antimagic Torq (or whatever it's called) is pretty cheap.

Woosh!

That's the sound of the joke completely going over your head.

[Benly]

Honestly I think that Thunderdome-style Two Enter One Leaves threads miss and possibly mask a deeper problem with fighter/wizard game balance.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a well-prepared fighter can take down a non-TO non-Schroedinger wizard exactly fifty percent of the time. (Yes, I know that's probably not the case above very low levels in even the best case scenario. Bear with me.) So we have our fifty percent one way, fifty percent the other - they're balanced, right? Each kills the other half the time.

Except they're not, because the fighter's entire class premise and strength is theoretically "this guy is good at killing things". The wizard's abilities include killing things, warping space, creating matter from nothing, controlling minds, discovering impossible-to-learn information, blah blah etc. For them to be balanced, the fighter has to be winning more than half the time, because winning fights is all he gets to be good at. The wizard really should be going "HOLY CRAP A FIGHTER" and doing his best to make sure the faceoff doesn't happen at all.

Needless to say, wizards don't go HOLY CRAP A FIGHTER. Not even in the most favorable arguments in favor of the fighter.

I dunno, I'm not breaking new ground here. For all my disagreements with Tome's worldsetting assumptions and decisions about what high-end play "should" be, this is a philosophical point where I agree with them and they've gone over it much more loudly and at length. This is just what bugs me each time I see a "fighters can totes kill a wizard if they do it right!" thread.