Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Getting a nightmare and being practically invincible. 

[Bastian]

Summon ganking so that you can make powerful undead.

[BeholderSlayer]

I think it should be pretty intuitive that, since the Fighter must rely on special circumstances to win that will only occur a fraction of the time, the wizard is superior at every level.

Saying things like:
-what if the fighter has surprise
-what if the fighter has a bow
-what if the fighter [insert gobbledygook here]

All these "what ifs" should make it absurdly clear that the wizard is superior, and not long after the earliest levels these "what if"'s eventually disappear and it just becomes "wizard wins, end of story."

[BeholderSlayer]

People keep mentioning Planar Binding as an über-spell of doom.
I understand the theory, but aside from Efreet Wish-loops, are there any obvious highlights?

And as a regard to the fighter vs. wizard.
Both can win, given that they fight at their preferred terms.
It's just that the wizard can enforce his terms easier than the fighter.

I'm a tad tired of the argument that the fighter should attack the wizard when he is out of spells.
Sure, that's an obvious and good tactic, given a low enough level for the wizard to lack contingencies (and I mean not just the spell).
But on the flip side, I sure as hell wouldn't want a Wizard attacking me whilst I'm unarmed, unarmored and sleeping.


...hell, why do I even have to stay on topic?
It's the same [obscenities] question for the last 16 pages.


So, anyone feel like going of topic and discuss Planar Binding findings with me instead?


Oh and Horde of Donkeys ftw

Donkey summoner. That one has win written all over it.

Donkey Summoner and his sidekick, Birdhouse Skateboard Bandit.

[Bastian]

I think it should be pretty intuitive that, since the Fighter must rely on special circumstances to win that will only occur a fraction of the time, the wizard is superior at every level.

Saying things like:
-what if the wizard is bound and gagged
-what if the wizard is out of spells and doesn't have a donkey horde
-What if the terrain magically hinders the wizard and not the fighter
-what if the fighter is able to ignore [this basic rule]
-what if the fighter [insert gobbledygook here]

All these "what ifs" should make it absurdly clear that the wizard is superior, and not long after the earliest levels these "what if"'s eventually disappear and it just becomes "wizard wins, end of story."

*fixed*

[Bastian]

Now, back on topic.

People keep mentioning Planar Binding as an über-spell of doom.
I understand the theory, but aside from Efreet Wish-loops, are there any obvious highlights?

Using CL boosting to summon super high level beings and have them FIGHT TO THE DEATH!!!!!

[skydragonknight]

All these "what ifs" should make it absurdly clear that the wizard is superior, and not long after the earliest levels these "what if"'s eventually disappear and it just becomes "wizard wins, end of story."

To be fair, people argue "what if Wizard has X spell and does Y with it" and that's conceived as a valid argument. (Playing "Fighter's Advocate" here so that we can have a better discussion).

[awaken DM golem]

Any given duel situation, can have a starting distance of X.
That X can be any number.
Within certain ranges, Fighter can do things a Wizard can't, and cause some serious problems ... and may even win.
Charge or Bows come to mind.
That's just a condition of duels.

[rubberduck]

you know what i do in fact think that maybe this is the wrong approach.

we should not set up a duel between wizards and fighters but a contest.
you should put them through a trial because this is the more natural state.

there are not meant to fight each other but quite the opposite are meant to fight critters together.

lets make up a trial a dungeon maybe that either of them has to solve alone and
then see who competes best.
then we don't have to argue what is fair and who prepares what and all that.

we make up a dungeon and everyone may propose a wizard / fighter best suited to solo this thing. and as long as both succeed we can up the challenge until one of the fails because of something be it traps be it encounters or natural hazards.

what do you think of that?

[lans]

the fighter has not really a chance against the caster even at low levels
this is just because a caster will always have more options at his disposal than the fighter.

as a fighter you basically have two choices
you can specialize in close combat or in ranged combat.

the problem with this is getting close combat the caster will have enough time to kill you before you even get to him
and in ranged combat the caster can simply outperform you.

here is an example of the low level sorcerer:

Human Sorcerer
level 1

str 8
dex 14
con 18
int10
wis10
cha12

feats: sudden extend, sudden maximize
spells
level 1 (4/day): mount, power word: pain (races of the dragon)
level 0: fluff

This is a sort of duelist in my eyes. Casts mount before combat, saddle up. From the next two hours, Mr. Potter is more mobile than most creatures. He has above average hp and should be able to survive at least one longbow arrow. Intiative modifier of +2. Most monsters or characters of this level can't live through a single casting of power word pain (1d6/round for a given duration based on hitpoints of target).

The duration is 4d4 rounds for targets with 50 hp or fewer, 2d4 rounds if hp is 51-75, and 1d4 if hp is 76-100. All others are unaffected. casting time is one standard action.

The strategy is simple, cast and run. 4d6 minimum damage as a level 1, which is an average of 21 damage. Not even the stoutest level 1 barbarian could live up to that, even while raging (19 hp dawrf barbarian raging).

However, just in case that particular day, your dm is being some sort of duchebag and threatening the players with a level 3 or 4 character , or even something cr 5 or 6, you have a grenade ready. Mount up as usual, then cast you're almighty maximized power word: pain. Six damage every round for 16 rounds (96 damage), which is an auto kill, or 6 damage every round for 8 rounds (48 damage) if it's beefy (hp 51-75), which would eliminate two thirds of it's total hp. With sudden extend this damage leaps to 96, but for the sake of arguement let's look at the effects should it not be available.

What happens if my fighter is immune to Mind Affecting spells and abilities, and is shooting at you with a bow?

[BeholderSlayer]

you know what i do in fact think that maybe this is the wrong approach.

we should not set up a duel between wizards and fighters but a contest.
you should put them through a trial because this is the more natural state.

there are not meant to fight each other but quite the opposite are meant to fight critters together.

lets make up a trial a dungeon maybe that either of them has to solve alone and
then see who competes best.
then we don't have to argue what is fair and who prepares what and all that.

we make up a dungeon and everyone may propose a wizard / fighter best suited to solo this thing. and as long as both succeed we can up the challenge until one of the fails because of something be it traps be it encounters or natural hazards.

what do you think of that?

It's been done. It's called The Same Game Test. You can google it if you want.

Funny enough, the following is how we gauge level:

    * Monk Balance Level - If a class wins less than 50% of the level 5 SGT, it is very likely a monk level class.
    * Fighter Balance Level - If a class wins around 50% of the level 5 SGT but less than 50% of the level 10 SGT, it is very likely a fighter level class.
    * Rogue Balance Level - If wins around 50% of the level 5 and 10 SGTs, and does not fall behind significantly on the level 15 SGT, it is very likely a rogue level class.
    * Wizard Balance Level - If a class wins significantly more than 50% of the level 10 and 15 SGTs, it is very likely a wizard level class.

[rubberduck]

just a tip: do not start with a "what if" sentence  
how are you going to achieve that?

well we had that i guess but:
silent image helps here
as does turtling behind a tower-shield and let the familiar drop things on you

depending on the level were talking... invisibility, fly,wall of iron,obscuring mist, time-stop, and others

Code:

at this point i like to point out once again: wizards options improve over the time while the fighter hits better with his bow. this is why i think wizard is superior.

it really depends on the setting specifics like level, how far are we apart what are the features of the terrain? all that stuff

thats why i thought maybe a duell is not the best idea.
what basically might happen is i shoot back at you with gargantuan crossbow bolts...

[rubberduck]

actually i have the feeling that the wizard lovers here are somewhat on the defensive somehow.
its always a fighter say what if i do this and that?

so i go against my own advice and ask:
what if my wizard casts a time-stop and within that time-stop 2 gate spells
and gates in two great wyrms, or to spice it up a balor and a pit fiend.
then goes  improved/superior invisible and will continue to summon shit and blast and debuff you while the critters tear you to shreds.

oh and you are still immune to mindaffecting :-)

what would you do? will you take out your axe or bow?

[lans]

just a tip: do not start with a "what if" sentence  
how are you going to achieve that?

Willing Deformity and Willing Deformoty(madness)

well we had that i guess but:
silent image helps here
as does turtling behind a tower-shield and let the familiar drop things on you

I shoot your familiar

depending on the level were talking... invisibility, fly,wall of iron,obscuring mist, time-stop, and others

Code:

at this point i like to point out once again: wizards options improve over the time while the fighter hits better with his bow. this is why i think wizard is superior.

it really depends on the setting specifics like level, how far are we apart what are the features of the terrain? all that stuff

We're talking level 1 still, and I don't think anybody is arguing which class is superior.

thats why i thought maybe a duell is not the best idea.
what basically might happen is i shoot back at you with gargantuan crossbow bolts...

I don't think Gauntlets prove anything either, all they do is prove that the classes that have multitudes of broken options are better than the class that barely keeps up, and we have already have a list of which class is which.

[Tshern]

There was also the low level caster challenge, where casters and noncasters went through some dungeons. Perhaps someone (carnivore, I am looking at you and your Warmage!) could post some of the funny caster builds that actually got through it.

[rubberduck]

Where is Launch bolt from?

spell compendium page 130

[rubberduck]

I shoot your familiar

flies to high. as already stated earlier it could fly so high that you cant shoot it and then still drop stones or something on you

We're talking level 1 still, and I don't think anybody is arguing which class is superior.

if were not arguing that what else? i thought that was the whole purpose of this thread

I don't think Gauntlets prove anything either, all they do is prove that the classes that have multitudes of broken options are better than the class that barely keeps up, and we have already have a list of which class is which.

well 17 pages of dick contest here did not get us anywhere... was just an idea though i don't insist on it.

but really all i can see so far on the fighters side is:
you win initiative and are in favorable conditions that you can shoot the wizard but the wizard cant shoot you and were level 1 so you hope to instantly slay the wizard

while as is stated earlier this tactic applies to the wizard equally he still has spells which enable him to execute the same tactic better than you. apart form totaly different tactics that you cant emulate

[lans]

I shoot your familiar

flies to high. as already stated earlier it could fly so high that you cant shoot it and then still drop stones or something on you

Don't things only drop 200 ft, or so, a round?

We're talking level 1 still, and I don't think anybody is arguing which class is superior.

if were not arguing that what else? i thought that was the whole purpose of this thread

I don't recall the purpose of this thread, it was necroed from quite a bit back, I was showing that the a fighter could have a better chance. Mostly its thought exercises

I don't think Gauntlets prove anything either, all they do is prove that the classes that have multitudes of broken options are better than the class that barely keeps up, and we have already have a list of which class is which.

well 17 pages of dick contest here did not get us anywhere... was just an idea though i don't insist on it.

It works, but gauntlets are a bit more annoying than vague thought excercises.

but really all i can see so far on the fighters side is:
you win initiative and are in favorable conditions that you can shoot the wizard but the wizard cant shoot you and were level 1 so you hope to instantly slay the wizard

  I don't recal the exact reason for the wizard and fighter being level 1, but I think its due to Quadratic Wizards and Linear Fighters trope, and higher levels are even more lopsided in favor of the wizards. As for favorable conditions, the fighter most likely, flat out need them against optimized wizards.

while as is stated earlier this tactic applies to the wizard equally he still has spells which enable him to execute the same tactic better than you. apart form totaly different tactics that you cant emulate

Thats fine

[PhaedrusXY]

I shoot your familiar

flies to high. as already stated earlier it could fly so high that you cant shoot it and then still drop stones or something on you

Don't things only drop 200 ft, or so, a round?

No. There is a limit, but it is (significantly IIRC) higher than that. And why does that matter, anyway?

[rubberduck]

This ends up being both a rules and a physics question. The short answer is, “In a single round, you fall far enough to hit the ground in the vast majority circumstances that come up in the game.”

Here’s the long answer: A falling character accelerates at a rate of 32 feet per second per second. What that means is that every second, a character’s “falling speed” increases by 32 feet. The distance he falls in that second is equal to the average of his falling speeds at the beginning of that second and at the end of that second. Thus, during the first second he falls 16 feet (the average of 0 feet and 32 feet, which are his speeds at the start and end of that second). During the next second he falls 48 feet (the average of 32 feet and 64 feet). He falls 80 feet during the third second, 112 feet the fourth second, 144 feet the fifth second, and 176 feet the sixth second. That’s a grand total of 576 feet fallen in the first round alone, hence the short answer given above—the number of falls occurring in any campaign longer than this is probably pretty small. For ease of play, you could simply use 500 feet as a nice round number—it’s easier to remember.

Of course, the character falls even farther the next round, although acceleration soon ends due to the resistance of air on the falling body (this is what’s called terminal velocity). If the Sage remembers his high-school physics, terminal velocity for a human body is roughly 120 mph (equivalent to a speed of 1,200 feet per round, or 200 feet per second); thus, the character’s falling speed hits its maximum in the first second of the second round. It’s safe to say that after 2 rounds the character will have fallen nearly 2,000 feet, and will fall another 1,200 feet per round thereafter.