Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)

[Nachofan99]

You don't have cover until you use a Standard Action to have the shield grant you cover to a specific facing.  It's last for 1 turn. (I'm using the FAQ ruling first - if you don't want to use the FAQ ruling that's fine just say so.)

1) The facing you choose for the shield may or may not be wrong.  If it's wrong you don't have cover.
2) If I somehow lost Initiative, even though you have a massive penalty, my action is to ready an action to fire if you try to use your shield for cover.  So you have no cover when I fire.  Rinse repeat.
B) You always ride around with a tower shield, probably encumbered, and with ~-10 to your ride checks and initiative checks in actual gameplay, using a Standard Action every turn to grant yourself cover?

Oh he *can* have the shield out.  And he *can* have cover using the rules - he picks a direction to have cover from.  He won't always have cover in the right direction every time, at the very start of combat.  Oh wait he will because of Wizard Fiat.

If you're saying my argument boils down to "A bowman *could* roll a nat 20 and kill the Wizard" then what does your argument boil down to?

[Agita]

You don't have cover until you use a Standard Action to have the shield grant you cover to a specific facing.  It's last for 1 turn. (I'm using the FAQ ruling first - if you don't want to use the FAQ ruling that's fine just say so.)

The FAQ has no RAW power.

[Nachofan99]

That's fine and I'm not inherently for or against using the FAQ or denying it.  But I'm not automatically not using it until someone says they don't want to use it.  Obviously the Tower Shield RAW in PHB1 aren't perfectly clear.  But I can still use them if the Wizard *needs* that to win.

[Agita]

I didn't actually read up on how you use Tower Shields without the FAQ before posting that, so I can quite credibly claim I'm unbiased on this. However, as the FAQ has no power over the actual rules, I'm afraid if you want 'no fiat', be it Wizard Fiat, Fighter Fiat or Fiat 500, you're gonna have to go with the SRD.

[rubberduck]

dude ok i will give you the following:
dex 18 weapon focus bab1

so ok you have a attack bonus of ?? +6?

you are shooting at stuff 1100 feat away which is -20 on the attack roll
ok so now you got -14 on whatever you roll
that is not even enough to beat the base ac of 10
that will only hit on a 20

but than again...
a wizard could pick up the same bow and try the same... sure my malus is even worse since i am not proficent but i also will hit on a 20
you are not proving any point her apart from you can roll a 20 on your first round.

but then when we close to 800 feet where i can launch bolts at you
due to true strike the wizard would have maybe +4 due to dex and +20 due to truestrike and -20 due to the increments
so its settled at +4
while the fighter still has -10 (+6attack bonus-16malus increments)

i think i bet on the wizard any day!

i hope you finally see the point that everything the fighter can do can be done by the wizard too and then after that the wizard has spells! thats why he wins

[JaronK]

At 1,100 feet away the Fighter can't even see the Wizard anyway, so the Wizard could even just stroll up slowly and the Fighter won't see him until long after his shield is out.  Obviously, the shield is in the right facing... the Fighter's not exactly moving quickly to the side at this kind of range.

JaronK

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If the wizard turtles and never moves, he can have a hawk familiar fly at 1200 feet, and drop rocks coconuts of 11 lbs each, carrying one in each claw for light encumbrance.  Falling damage is 20d6.  Takes longer, and would only hit on a 20, but it has exactly zero risk, and when it does hit it ensures a kill.

Even if you end up hitting, you still don't ensure a kill.  So the odds of victory under these conditions (which incredibly favor the fighter) are less than 1-in-20.  If you don't kill the wizard in the first hit, you will not be able to hit him behind his tower shield in any subsequent rounds.  Moving nearer doesn't help you until melee range - before which point you'll have to swap out weapons and no longer serve as a ranged threat.

In medium range, the wizard can drop a silent image of a cloud of fog filled with slowly moving copies of the wizard.  He can see through it, the fighter can't until he interacts with it.

[Tshern]

Just cycled to work in terrible wind, tired and without caffeine in my blood and I was about to give in to desperation until I saw this thread again. Thank you for saving my morning people.

Since I am still not sure whether we are witnessing an excellent troll in action or not, I'll just write down a few facts about this encounter:

• Starting distance: 1100 feet. This means neither combatant will see the other due to the massive penalties to Spot checks.
• Equipment: Fighter: A bow, probably a melee weapon, some sort of armour. Wizard: Tower shield, spell component pouch, spellbook, possibly some animals
• Tactics: Fighter: Prepares an action to shoot the Wizard. Assuming he somehow seems him, he needs a natural 20 and the damage still might not be enough. Wizard: Can use his familiar as a scout, obscure vision with Silent image and whatnot. Familiar can also deal damage by dropping objects.

That's pretty much what we have here, right?

P.S. I found some coffee!

[rubberduck]

yes you basically got it right
id like to point out however that you do not need the spot check to see your opponent

The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

and this is what 1100 feet looks like: (a 300m range)

since there a re no obstacles you should see your enemy perfectly good

however the massive malus to attack stays of course

[JaronK]

Yes, but within D&D rules you still don't start encounters that far out and can't see them.  Yes, it's odd, but it's still the case.  I love how people keep talking about Wizards getting special rules for them, but are constantly ignoring the rules in favor of fighters (ignoring spot and encounter distance rules, making invisibility defeating snow storms that don't reduce visibility, etc) and making odd assumptions (like that the Wizard won't always have the shield pointed at the Fighter).

JaronK

[SorO_Lost]

1. Why is it always assumed that the wizard is optimized for the exact fight, but the fighter is not?
2. As SorO_Lost said, giving the Wizard infinitely superior terrain advantage gives the Wizard just that. 
3. I'm sick of Player Fiat, but I'm even sicker of Wizard Fiat.

1. Long story made somewhat short.
A. No one really stats out a wizard but everyone stats out the fighter, it's like knowing the first 10 turns in chess your opponent uses. Who would give that up?
B. They did try once anyway, it was more of a thread dedicated to combining as many TO/Dirty Tricks into one character at once than it was anything else.
C. COP was the excuse, but time is unchangable by mortals, someone defined True Answer to bypass the abilities of modified time thus making COP useless since you cannot change the outcome, and in game it runs into more problems than it solves. I can't say I've seen it being mentioned even half as much as it used to now though.

2. Of course. However, a 1,100x1,100 snowy terrain is a horrible, horrible, horribly bad idea.
I could make it useful of course, two large tower shields or even stick walls tossed into the snow at set intervals to provide total cover blocking even targetable spells would be a good place to start, but that's me. You on the other hand and to shoot off into the horizon at invisible enemies that may not even be there. That is the player skill difference between us.

I personally like forests even better. Trees are cover on the ground, you can climb and hide in them, and flight really isn't an advantage due to tree branches and the, uuhh forest roof of leaves term, pretty much granting full-cover. Also this may come at a surprise, but there is a lot of woodland areas on most maps barring coastal/desert areas making it a pretty common place too.

Finally and 300 meters is only 984.251 feet, you are 115.749 feet short with that picture. Not that I'm nitpicking or anything.

3. Me too but it's not just here and I guarantee if you put them in game as a noncaster they would find a way to kill the wizard BBEG.

[Nachofan99]

Thank god SorO, thank god. 

I like #3 in particular and it's definitely got the most merit of everything.  In game if they were a non-caster you would bet they would find a way to kill that Wizard.  They just won't on these boards.


When people still have not read the Spot rules it makes me not even care anymore. 

The DM determines if you use the Spot rules or not. 

The rules for Spot are not the rules for "vision".

You do not use Spot checks if visibility is clear, because you only use Spot checks against Hiding or hard to see things.  Read the damn rules.

What determines if something is Hiding or hard to see?  The DM.

If they are easy to see do you use Spot?  Fuck no, you don't use it.  It never happens.  There is no penalty for distance because you apply that penalty to Spot checks.

Spot checks do not determine how far you can see, it only determines how far you can see Hiding or hard to see things.

What is so hard about that?

Oh, that's right!

Don't use the Spot rules if it's a disadvantage for a Wizard!
Use the Spot rules if it's an advantage for the Wizard!
Wizard Fiat.

[PhaedrusXY]

When people still have not read the Spot rules it makes me not even care anymore. 

The DM determines if you use the Spot rules or not. 

The rules for Spot are not the rules for "vision".

You do not use Spot checks if visibility is clear, because you only use Spot checks against Hiding or hard to see things.  Read the damn rules.

You used to use Spot rules to determine encounter distance, regardless of whether anyone was hiding or not.

Here are the rules from the 3.0 SRD. I think this was dropped from the 3.5 SRD, and I'm not sure if it is in the 3.5 DMG either, as I use the SRD almost exclusively... So I'm not sure if this is actually still the "current" 3.5 rules or not, but people aren't just pulling it out of their ass that you should use Spot to determine encounter distance, either.

Code:

ENCOUNTERS
When an encounter between the PCs and an NPC or creature is
imminent, follow these steps:
1. Determine vision conditions and terrain. Choose from the
choices on Table: Spotting Distance.
2. If line of sight or illumination defines the distance at which the
encounter occurs (as often happens indoors), start the encounter
there. Otherwise, roll for spotting distance on Table: Spotting
Distance.
3. All creatures involved make Spot checks. Success means that
creature sees the other creature or group. See Table: Spotting
Difficulty for modifiers on these checks.
4. If neither side succeeds, all creatures spot each other at one-
half the rolled range.
The circumstances that can affect the DC of a Spot check are as
follows:

Size: Add +4 to the base DC of 20 for each size category the
creature being spotted is smaller than Medium-size or -4 for each
size category larger. You can make exceptions for creatures with
unusual shapes, such as a Large snake that's low to the ground
and thus as hard to see as a Small creature.

Contrast: How starkly the creature's coloring stands out against
the surroundings. It's easy to spot a brightly colored couatl in a
dark jungle and hard to see winter wolves in the snow.

Stillness: It's harder to see creatures that are not moving.

Six or More Creatures: Groups of creatures are easier to spot,
even if the creatures are smaller than Medium-size.

Moonlight: Nighttime, but with moonlight (or similar light).

Starlight: Nighttime with no moon but a clear, starry sky (or
similar light).

Total Darkness: Overcast at night, or otherwise lightless.

Hiding and Spotting
If creatures are trying not to be seen, it's usually harder to spot
them, but creatures that are keeping low to avoid being spotted
also are less likely to notice other creatures.

If creatures are hiding, they can only move at half their normal
overland speed. They also suffer a -2 penalty on their Spot
checks to notice other creatures because they are staying low.

Instead of a base DC of 20 for others to spot them at the
standard spotting distance, the DC is 25 + the hider's Hide skill
modifier. The modifiers from Table 3-2: Spotting Difficulty still
apply, except for the size modifier (which is already part of the
character's skill modifier). A character whose Hide ranks, Dexterity
modifier, and armor check penalty total -6 or lower is actually has
a lower DC than if he or she weren't hiding. In such cases, simply
calculate the Spot DC as if the character weren't hiding (according
to Table: Spotting Difficulty). If a creature gets a special bonus to
Hide because of camouflage, special coloring, and so on, use that
bonus rather than the contrast bonus from Table: Spotting
Difficulty.

Additionally, the other creatures do not automatically spot hiding
creatures at one-half the encounter distance. Instead, that is the
distance at which the other creatures can make Spot checks to
notice the hiding creatures. These are normal Spot checks
opposed by the hiders' Hide checks.

Table: Spotting Distance
Terrain Distance
------- --------
Smoke or heavy fog 2d4 x 5 ft. (avg. 25 ft.)
Jungle or dense forest 2d4 x 10 ft. (50 ft.)
Light forest 3d6 x 10 ft. (105 ft.)
Scrub, brush or bush 6d6 x 10 ft. (210 ft.)
[b]Grassland, little cover 6d6 x 20 ft. (420 ft.)[/b]
Total darkness Limit of sight
Indoors (lit) Line of sight
Table: Spotting Difficulty
Circumstances DC
------------- --
Base 20*
Size +/-4 per size category
Contrast +/-5 or more
Stillness (not moving) +5
Six or more creatures -2
Moonlight** +5
Starlight† +10
Total darkness Impossible††
*x25 if one side is hiding, and ignore size modifiers (see text).
**+5 bonus on Spot check if the spotter has low-light vision or if
he or she has darkvision that extends far enough.
†x+5 bonus on Spot check if the spotter has low-light vision or
+10 if he or she has darkvision that extends far enough.
††Unless the spotter has darkvision that extends far enough.

Missed Encounters
The rules for spotting creatures assume that both sides will
eventuallynotice each other, and they simply establish the
distance at which they do so. But sometimes you want to take
into account the possibility that the two groups will miss each
other entirely.

To handle these possibilities, simply let there be a 50% chance
that the other creatures encountered and the PCs don't get any
closer but rather pass by each other, such as when one group is
moving north and the other east. (Creatures following the PCs'
trail, of course, always close with them.)

It says "if spotting distance is limited by line of sight, use line of sight for determining encounter starting distance. Otherwise, use these rules." (Paraphrased, but you can read it above). So no, it's not DM fiat. There are rules for this stuff. If you started on a flat plain, it is possible you might roll high enough to start at 1100 feet, but not likely (the average is 420 feet).

Now... these rules are kind of dumb, and probably almost no one even uses them, at least not exactly as presented. Having all encounters start at a distance that is advantageous to the NPCs is one thing that bugs me about most games I play in as a PC, though, especially if there is no real reason for it. Of course not all DMs do that, but many do frequently, even otherwise good DMs. So having some rules is kind of nice, even if those rules are a bit borked and need to be house ruled a bit to be useful to individual DMs.

[Nachofan99]

Wizards need the rules from the 3.0 SRD if it's advantageous for them.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

It's in the 3.5 DMG and the 3.5 SRD.  Please, quit it with the strawmen.

In general, the maximum distance in desert terrain at which a Spot check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6×20 feet; beyond this distance, elevation changes and heat distortion in warm deserts makes spotting impossible. The presence of dunes n sandy deserts limits spotting distance to 6d6×10 feet.

In plains terrain, the maximum distance at which a Spot check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6×40 feet, although the specifics of your map may restrict line of sight.

STARTING AN ENCOUNTER
An encounter can begin in one of three situations.
•One side becomes aware of the other and thus can act first.
• Both sides become aware of each other at the same time.
•Some, but not all, creatures on one or both sides become aware of the other side.

When you decide that it is possible for either side to become aware of the other, use Spot checks, Listen checks, sight ranges, and so on to determine which of the three above cases comes into play.

[rubberduck]

@Nachofan99
i really feel the need to point out that you're just making shit up as you go and as you please.

your concept of winning against a wizard at lower levels is win initiative and then roll a 20
nothing else you do not really use any of the fighters abilities and you know why?
because he does not have any!
that is the fighters problem he has nothing but fullbab and some feats. and at level 1 you only have one bab and one feat

while the wizard has a familiar that can attack you he can as i pointed out throw 4d6 bolts as level 0 spells and make himself nearly invisible with shit like still image.
and what are the tactics of the fighter?
please really tell me how many tactics can one think of for the fighter apart from:

charge smack win
shoot hit win

your strategy relies only on luck you have no options at least you present none.

while everybody that is on the wizards side presented different approaches to winning utilizing different tactics against which the fighter has no chance whatsoever.

[PhaedrusXY]

Wizards need the rules from the 3.0 SRD if it's advantageous for them.

You're a dick. Anyone ever told you that? I'm actually trying to be helpful, and went to the trouble to dig up that shit. I don't OWN the fucking 3.5 DMG, so I don't know if it is still in there or not. Otherwise I'd have quoted that. The point was that there are (or were, I'm not sure which...) rules that say you use Spot to determine encounter distance. So your repeatedly saying "read the fucking rules, you assholes. You don't use Spot to determine encounter distance" is a bit misplaced.

Also, it doesn't even fucking matter, as your hypothetical fighter can't hit the broad side of a barn at 1100 feet, anyway. Once you start taking potshots and hoping for a natural 20, the wizard knows where you are and can start doing something to protect himself and/or kill you. The easiest thing is to just try and hole up and wait you out. Silent Image lasts as long as he cares to concentrate on it, and every mage I have ever made knew and prepared it starting at 1st level. So he makes a Silent Image of a fucking igloo and sits there in it until you get bored of firing randomly and decide to try and go stab him, or leave. Whatever.

Seriously. It's a dumb scenario. You'd be a LOT better off staring out hiding at a more reasonable distance, like 150 feet. That gives the wizard a -15 penalty to Spot you. So even if you're not that great at hiding, you still very likely succeed. You might even hide from his hawk familiar (if he has one... I usually take a raven or bat). If you have Far Shot, you also can shoot at him with no penalties to your attacks. Since he's flat-footed and has crappy hit points, you're quite likely to drop him before he gets to do anything if you have a decent initiative.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

So he makes a Silent Image of a fucking igloo and sits there in it until you get bored of firing randomly and decide to try and go stab him, or leave. Whatever.

Of course, if we're going by strict Rules as Written, I've never actually seen a fighter who had ranks in spellcraft.  Ever.

So it would be more like.

"Shit, that guy turned into a terrifying giant fucking ice-breathing lizard."

[skydragonknight]

So he makes a Silent Image of a fucking igloo and sits there in it until you get bored of firing randomly and decide to try and go stab him, or leave. Whatever.

Of course, if we're going by strict Rules as Written, I've never actually seen a fighter who had ranks in spellcraft.  Ever.

Spellcraft is required for the Mage Slayer feat, so I have.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Yeah, I meant voluntarily.