Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)

[Bastian]

Why is it always assumed that the wizard is optimized for the exact fight, but the fighter is not?  I can understand at *MAX LEVEL* why this is true, but not at low levels.  And I understand perfectly that wizard's control time and space at high levels.  But really, at level 1?  At level 3?

An elf/dragon fighter makes sleep irrelevant.   Imagine how that fight would go down.
A "poorly designed" venerable fighter with pumped Wisdom for will save, with feats for saves will make their save far more often then not.
As SorO_Lost said, giving the Wizard infinitely superior terrain advantage gives the Wizard just that. 

Why not make it an 1100x1100 empty void lacking cover with each combatant at opposite ends, but it's during a snowstorm that gives away invisible creatures yet doesn't hamper LoS?  A low level wizard can't even cast that far.  A fighter will bow them to death with Rapid Shot before the Wizard can even close the distance.  "But the wizard could do this...or that...or..."

Bullshit.  There is no build that does everything in all ways at all times, sans Pun-Pun the great.  And let's be honest, that's not exactly a *build*.

I'm sick of Player Fiat, but I'm even sicker of Wizard Fiat.  It's a disease, nay, a virus.  And it has spread all up in here.

The fighter with his BMX skills usually is optimized for the challenge at hand. That doesn't change anything.

Also your scenario fails basic rules, neither would be able to see each other considering the spot rules nor would a fighter be likely to be able to hit on anything but a natural 20 even if he could see the wizard.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Sleep is one spell.  You memorize more than one spell.

At worst it's going to be a mutual kill if the wizard uses power word pain. 

A loadout of

Sleep, Power Word Pain, and Silent image is both versatile and dangerous enough for pretty much anything.  Toss in a tower shield if you really want to, and drop it if you're going to start casting.

[Tshern]

Colour spray is probably my personal favourite, although the range is not that optimal.

Despite that, The_Mad_Linguist did superlative job at describing the situation.

Perhaps we are, however, dealing with a prankster here.

[JaronK]

If I was making a first level Wizard and knew I had a fight coming up where I was by myself (not knowing anything else), my standard spell load out would be Color Spray and Power Word Pain.  That'll work against pretty much everything. 

I do, by the way, like to spend my wealth on a riding dog as soon as possible.  It's better than a Fighter and works wonders.

JaronK

[PhaedrusXY]

If I was making a first level Wizard and knew I had a fight coming up where I was by myself (not knowing anything else), my standard spell load out would be Color Spray and Power Word Pain.  That'll work against pretty much everything. 

I do, by the way, like to spend my wealth on a riding dog as soon as possible.  It's better than a Fighter and works wonders.

JaronK

I prefer a mule brigade. At 8 gold pieces per pop they're almost as good as the riding dog as far as combat stats, and you can afford a bunch of them. You can also still ride one even if you're medium sized. Of course the fighter can do the same (cheap) trick, but the wizard is more squishy and needs the advantage to survive at the lower levels more.

Yeah, I know blasphemy and all that, but duels aside (because they're basically stupid), 4+Con is substantially less than 10+Con, and no armor is worse than having armor (unless you fall off the side of a boat). Most 1st level wizards I play with don't want to "waste" slots on Mage Armor, either. You have precious few spells. Better to save them to actually make you useful in combat, unless you have a reserve feat or something...

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Of course, if FMI is allowed the hp situation is somewhat better.

[Nachofan99]

Given Scenario was Given.
Given Scenario does not fail basic rules but basic reading comprehension failure did happen.

Natural 20s happen when rolls actually start happening.  Dream fight scenarios never see Nat 20s because play never occurs.  Fancy that.  I'm safe behind a theoretical wall.  Theoretical walls are just as good as actual walls for actual play...oh wait they are not.  More Wizard Fiat.

I like the tower shield tech for the bow, I do, it's a good, solid tactic in theory. But I don't think you were fair to me when you brought it up.

What if I use Encumbrance tech on you?  A tower shield weighs 45 pounds.  What's your strength score? You would need a 13 strength as a WIZARD to not have a medium load with just the tower shield and NO OTHER ITEMS.   Optimize only your side of the battle and simultaneously only bring up rules when it's convenient for your side and we have the essence of Wizard Fiat; no wonder it's so incredibly one sided.

Both movement tech or readied action tech still lets the fighter get around the shield, if you would even have one considering encumbrance.

Power Word Pain is sweet, no question.  "Mutual kill at worst" is, however, questionable.

A KO or potential double KO if the caster gets it off.  Nice range too...about 30ft?  Oh wait.  If I can charge only 40ft, you have to close to my charge range *before* you can even cast.  If we have started from a long distance away, how many more Abrupt Jaunts do you have left?  I can't imagine many.

From 1100ft away you better have expeditious retreat prepped if you want to close quickly and minimize the number of bow shots.  Can't close too quickly weighed down by that tower shield using your standard action to get cover and taking an encumbered move action to get closer.  How many rounds would that take?  I would probably run out of arrows.

What if I use Endurance tech on you?  We walk around for 8 hours in a game of cat and mouse on a gigantic game grid.  Eventually the constitution checks start rolling in.  We probably have a similar bonus to our rolls so it's relatively random who gets fatigued and exhausted first.

These are all theoretical situations.

And like I said originally I know that level 20 Wizards are super dee-duper great at theoretical situations using real games rules for spells like CoP, and so on.  But Wizards that can die from 1 bow crit are nowhere near that level.
But low level Wizards that are non-theoretical are nowhere near that.

Phaedrus, EMBRACE the blasphemy!  You know it in your heart to be true!

[Tshern]

My memory is failing; what's FMI?

[rubberduck]

the fighter has not really a chance against the caster even at low levels
this is just because a caster will always have more options at his disposal than the fighter.

as a fighter you basically have two choices
you can specialize in close combat or in ranged combat.

the problem with this is getting close combat the caster will have enough time to kill you before you even get to him
and in ranged combat the caster can simply outperform you.

here is an example of the low level sorcerer:

Human Sorcerer
level 1

str 8
dex 14
con 18
int10
wis10
cha12

feats: sudden extend, sudden maximize
spells
level 1 (4/day): mount, power word: pain (races of the dragon)
level 0: fluff

This is a sort of duelist in my eyes. Casts mount before combat, saddle up. From the next two hours, Mr. Potter is more mobile than most creatures. He has above average hp and should be able to survive at least one longbow arrow. Intiative modifier of +2. Most monsters or characters of this level can't live through a single casting of power word pain (1d6/round for a given duration based on hitpoints of target).

The duration is 4d4 rounds for targets with 50 hp or fewer, 2d4 rounds if hp is 51-75, and 1d4 if hp is 76-100. All others are unaffected. casting time is one standard action.

The strategy is simple, cast and run. 4d6 minimum damage as a level 1, which is an average of 21 damage. Not even the stoutest level 1 barbarian could live up to that, even while raging (19 hp dawrf barbarian raging).

However, just in case that particular day, your dm is being some sort of duchebag and threatening the players with a level 3 or 4 character , or even something cr 5 or 6, you have a grenade ready. Mount up as usual, then cast you're almighty maximized power word: pain. Six damage every round for 16 rounds (96 damage), which is an auto kill, or 6 damage every round for 8 rounds (48 damage) if it's beefy (hp 51-75), which would eliminate two thirds of it's total hp. With sudden extend this damage leaps to 96, but for the sake of arguement let's look at the effects should it not be available.

[Tshern]

4d6 averages 14, not 21. 3,5x4 and all.

[rubberduck]

4d6 averages 14, not 21. 3,5x4 and all.

indeed the original author did a mistake there and i copied it over.
whatever. still i see that this is just one of countless strategies that will work.

maybe he uses sudden extend at this point or something I don't know.

[Nachofan99]

One of countless strategies that works at 25ft range, which means in this exact build case any random fighter will have opportunities to attack you before and during your cast.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

My memory is failing; what's FMI?

faerie mysteries initiate.  Int to HP instead of constitution forever.  Which makes your wizard a one-stat-wonder.  Dragon material, obviously.

Technically power word pain is actually a minimum of 5d6 since it deals an initial d6 damage as well.

Stats-wise, having a strength of 8 still lets you have a tower shield within your medium load.  The only other thing you really need is a spell component pouch and maybe a dagger.  Strap it to your pack mule when travelling or something.  And pretty much everyone needs to have some kind of pack mule, anyway, given the stupid DnD ratio of weight-to-value for gold.  

The 1100 feet thing is just dumb since by the rules you couldn't even see the target at that range.  Still, why does the wizard need to approach when he's got a tower shield to hide behind?  Let the fighter do the 'coming closer' business.

[Tshern]

My memory is failing; what's FMI?

faerie mysteries initiate.  Int to HP instead of constitution forever.  Which makes your wizard a one-stat-wonder.  Dragon material, obviously.

Ah, yes! Not sure if I have seen that abbreviation before, but I do now the feat. It is as disturbing one.

The 1100 feet thing is just dumb since by the rules you couldn't even see the target at that range.  Still, why does the wizard need to approach when he's got a tower shield to hide behind?  Let the fighter do the 'coming closer' business.

Seconded.

[rubberduck]

I think the real problem with this is the whole idea:
we treat characters as if they were gladiators
but there were never supposed to fight each other and therefore there is no balance between them

the characters have different jobs and one of the fighters jobs is to keep the bad guys away from the casters
while the caster's job is to do as much damage as possible from behind the line.
doesn't mean that they cant switch their jobs but that was the intention

I think it is very simple:
we can think of far more ways for a caster to kill a fighter then the other way around
and based on this I think it is safe to say that the caster has superior power

this concept seems to be true even from the very first level
it later levels it just gets clearer because the caster gets far more possibilities and gets them faster than a fighter

no matter how good is you swing your sword or fire your bow you can never create your own plane or summon a creature to your aid that is actually far stronger than a fighter

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The other issues is that, honestly, +1 BAB really doesn't matter that much at first level.  Picking a race with +2 strength is better than picking a class with +1 BAB.

And that's terrible.

[Nachofan99]

If you are just going to sit there and let me hail mary arrows until I Nat 20 and possibly kill you or run out of arrows, I'd be happy to run that simulation.  Considering the rules I can ready action for your standard action to use your shield for cover or simply move right or left to fire across another open line that does not have cover.

Where in the rules does it say that there exists no sight at 1100 feet?  The Spot skill says it's primary use is for seeing stuff that is not inherently obvious to see.   You use Spot opposed to Hide *or* if something is not hiding, but is still hard to see.  If the situation of the combat is 1100ft of visibility on a flat plane with no LoS obstructions and a light snow fall, that is the situation.  If the situation is starting at 25ft with the wizard winning initiative, that's another.  If the situation does not call for a Spot check, because there's open visibility, there is no -1 penalty per 10ft.

Stats-wise if you have a strength of 8 with a tower shield as your sole possession you are in a medium load.  You lose movement speed, have a check penalty and a max dex cap.  Just something to consider.

[Agita]

Stats-wise if you have a strength of 8 with a tower shield as your sole possession you are in a medium load.  You lose movement speed, have a check penalty and a max dex cap.  Just something to consider.

And why on earth would you care? You don't need Dex to AC, movement speed, or to make checks if you're just going to sit there and have the tower shield provide you total cover, thus blocking LoE. Since dropping something is a free action and picking it back up a move action, you can also still cast just fine.

[Nachofan99]

Stats-wise if you have a strength of 8 with a tower shield as your sole possession you are in a medium load.  You lose movement speed, have a check penalty and a max dex cap.  Just something to consider.

And why on earth would you care? You don't need Dex to AC, movement speed, or to make checks if you're just going to sit there and have the tower shield provide you total cover, thus blocking LoE. Since dropping something is a free action and picking it back up a move action, you can also still cast just fine.

Yet another example of looking straight past the rules of the game because it doesn't meet the outcome you like.

If you use a Tower Shield without proficiency, you take a penalty to your Dex checks...gee what Dex check would be important?  -10 to Initiative can't possibly matter!  PHB pg. 122
You can't drop a Tower Shield as Free Action, unless you're just carrying it instead of donning it.  Move action to drop it. Move action to don it.  Standard Action to cast. UH OH!  PHB pg. 123

Wizard Fiat.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If we start 1100 feet away

WHO CARES ABOUT INITIATIVE?


Again, how the hell are you even seeing him, with that -110 to spot you've got.