Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)

[Midnight_v]

Gee, since you brought it up.............What did Paizo do???

In a nutshell: nerfed non-casters and barely nerfed casters (or didn't in many cases).

Eh, meant it as a rhetorical, but yeah, I know.  I liked the basic fighter no longer having dead levels though.  Not sure what to make of wizards schools being turned almost into domain clones, though.  (Hmm.  Wizards are just Arcane Clerics???  Where have I seen that before?!)

Sorry to derail.

There is no rhetorical here. Only Fu and Fail.
LOL

[fliprushman]

How can you take a 10 on the check when you are clearly not allowed to take 10 while distracted?  The spell has you concentrating each round.

Taking 10
When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.

Concentration
The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end.

You can’t cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Sometimes a spell lasts for a short time after you cease concentrating.

[Sunic_Flames]

Except that you're 'distracted' by the very thing you're focusing on. Oh wait...

[fliprushman]

Wow!  Really?  You're gonna try and tell me that since he is focusing on the spell that he is not distracted, well that's bullocks.

Distracted: having the attention diverted

Focus: a central point, as of attraction, attention, or activity

Attention: the act or faculty of attending, esp. by directing the mind to an object.
[/spoiler]

Sunic, learn to read.

[Sunic_Flames]

Having your attention diverted means you're focusing on something, while something else is distracting you. You are concentrating on the same damn thing that you need the check for. Your post is the same as saying the Rogue cannot take 10 on Disable Device because the act of disarming the trap is distracting him from the trap.

Epic Fail is Epic.

[fliprushman]

Nice claim with the epic fail there.  But you still don't understand, do you?

[Tshern]

If you concentrate on throwing a dart for maximum points, is aiming actually a distraction?

[PhaedrusXY]

Ah hell, skip all this crap and have the cleric cast Commune instead. Same result, no risk. CoDzilla FTW!

[fliprushman]

LOL!
Ok well no argument there.

[Negative Zero]

If focusing on something constitutes a distraction from that same thing, it is logically impossible to take 10 on anything.

So you're going to try and stand on one foot and take ten on that Balance? No, you're trying too hard to balance to focus on balancing, so you can't take ten.

[Jenos]

Besides, that definition indicates that you must have been focusing on something.

Distracted: having the attention diverted

To divert ones attention, the attention must have been focused on something in the first place. Therefore, to be distracted and not be able to take 10, there must be at least 2 events going on - the one you're focusing on, and the diverting event.

[Sunic_Flames]

Nice claim with the epic fail there.  But you still don't understand, do you?

Your reading comprehension skills = the aforementioned Epic Fail. -0 said the same thing I was about to follow up with. If for some reason you cast Contact Other Plane in combat you would be distracted by that combat, and could not take 10 on asking questions. But why in the Blue Fuck would you do that?

Concentrating on talking to the gods without getting smited does not distract you from making your 'talk to the gods without being smited' check.

Especially since the check is made before you do anything, which means that even if your Paizil style logic was right, you're still wrong, because the Intelligence check happens before you begin concentrating to ask questions.

No matter how you spin it, you have Epic Failed.

This is your point:

[Midnight_v]

Nice claim with the epic fail there.  But you still don't understand, do you?

If its a matter of concentration then maybe its:

Sonorous Hum" from Savage Species. A spell for a Brd2, Clr3, Sor/Wiz3.

You can cast this spell, then cast a different spell which needs concentration to keep going on. Usually if you stop concentrating on such a "concentration spell", the spell ends. But not before casting "Sonorous hum"!

The concentration spell (e.g. Minor Image) will keep going on as long as "Sonorous Hum" is active. You can also cast another concentration spell now - such as "Detect Thoughts". Now you can switch between Minor Image and Detect Thoughts without any of these spells ending. Now you can add Major Image and switch between 3 spells! Hey, how about adding Rainbow Pattern?
Now you have 4 Spells that keep on going and going and going. And you still have controll over all 4 spells!
Unfortunately Sonorous Hum only lasts 1 minute / level. 

Thats needed?

I kid I kid but seriously concentrating as a part of a spell is a free action and taking a 10 on a check as a part of the spell indicates that the spell is asking you to make a check. If the idea is you can make a check then you should be able to take that action as a part of the spell requiring it.

Even at that there are many, many ways of taking a 10 while distracted.  Ultimately you're using an esoteric (read: nonexistent) interpretation of that rule. If you have to go to the dictionary prove your point you've kinda lost. Thats almost akin to getting a physicics book to explain why fireball doesn't work. Things have a different definiton in D^D, than in real life often. In this instance there's actually a list under concentration that references "distractions" like damaged in combat, and Strong wind.... no where on that list is "Casting a spell".
Seems like your intentionally being ridiculous. Are you having a laugh here with this? 

[Dictum Mortuum]

These threads are epic.
But unfortunately they are epic-er on 339.

[Sunic_Flames]

These threads are epic.
But unfortunately they are epic-er on 339.

Epic Fail, you mean?

[fliprushman]

To be honest, yes, I am having a laugh at this.  I enjoy these threads as well because people come onto them and spout junk like: "I can break the game with some spells" but do not fully understand how the spell works or why that could possibly work.

But I still hold true the idea that you cannot take 10 on this Intelligence check.

1. Concentrating on a spell and taking 10 on a "Skill check"(In this case an Intelligence check) cannot occur because your are too busy concentrating on the spell to take the time to make sure that you are able to make that ability check.  I admit that this is not as strong an argument but it's not invalid.  Sadly, I must agree that this falls more into DM territory than actual RAW.  So I concede this point as a house rule then.  End of discussion here.

2. The Intelligence check is more like a saving throw than it is a "Skill check", therefore you do not have the time to actually take 10 on your attempt.

Some skill checks are instant and represent reactions to an event, or are included as part of an action.  These skill checks are not actions.

  In the case of this spell, each question you ask will result in this reactive check, which is not an action, which means you cannot take the 10 on the check.

Now there are other ways around these limitations but those were not mentioned.  Furthermore, all I get in replies are attacks or baits instead of trying to explain their point even further.  So I question who has the stronger position at this time.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

"  In the case of this spell, each question you ask will result in this reactive check, which is not an action, which means you cannot take the 10 on the check."

"If you lose Intelligence and Charisma, the effect strikes as soon as the first question is asked, and no answer is received."

You only make one check.  Otherwise failing any of the checks would result in your failure going back in time, which is just... dumb.

[Straw_Man]

To be honest, yes, I am having a laugh at this.  I enjoy these threads as well because people come onto them and spout junk like: "I can break the game with some spells" but do not fully understand how the spell works or why that could possibly work.

But I still hold true the idea that you cannot take 10 on this Intelligence check.

1. Concentrating on a spell and taking 10 on a "Skill check"(In this case an Intelligence check) cannot occur because your are too busy concentrating on the spell to take the time to make sure that you are able to make that ability check.  I admit that this is not as strong an argument but it's not invalid.  Sadly, I must agree that this falls more into DM territory than actual RAW.  So I concede this point as a house rule then.  End of discussion here.

2. The Intelligence check is more like a saving throw than it is a "Skill check", therefore you do not have the time to actually take 10 on your attempt.

Some skill checks are instant and represent reactions to an event, or are included as part of an action.  These skill checks are not actions.

  In the case of this spell, each question you ask will result in this reactive check, which is not an action, which means you cannot take the 10 on the check.

Now there are other ways around these limitations but those were not mentioned.  Furthermore, all I get in replies are attacks or baits instead of trying to explain their point even further.  So I question who has the stronger position at this time.

  To reiterate, and reiterate. On a skill check you can take a 10. By RAW, concentrating on your task IS concentrating on your skillcheck. The skillcheck is built into use of the skill. They are undivided, both is one. The spell has a skillcheck built into it. The check is spell. Could you give a RAW ruling that disagrees?

[fliprushman]

I cannot find anything more to support my case so I concede.  I'm using RAI and not RAW.
Bravo!

Honestly, I, as a DM, would never allow my player to take 10 on this check.  Plus the spell has too much of a DM fiat feel to it anyways.  So even if by RAW you can find out what you ask, the DM is still the ultimate authority on whether or not he will follow thru with the answers.  Overall, I would still give this spell a "not so good" rating.

[Straw_Man]

  No, I admire you for having the grace to accept RAW sir. Some here ... well, lets us say their style is different 

  And I wouldn't blame you. I love Wizards, way back when they weren't God. Now it's so easy that the class is disappointing, it's just not challenging enough. This current spell debate has made me reconsider the power scale I think is optimal in D&D. My rebuilds were about making other classes more fun to play, but this just underlines the fact that the Wizard exceeds metagaming