CO Diary: Totemist

[pfooti]

Also, I think the challenge in balancing the soulborn is when you change the meldshaping progression. If it were faster, it would make soulborn a VERY good dipping class. There are some REALLY good soulborn melds for melee classes, plus Soulborn get a smite and a bonus feat and full BAB. I seriously looked at them for a while, but they just didn't pan out. But if I could pile all that on top of not having to spend a feat on mauling gauntlets or pauldrons of health or thunderstep boots, I'd be on board in an instant. Incarnate makes a good dip as well, but Azurins favor Soulborn.

As an aside, I really like the favored class rules. I'm not necessarily 100% on board with their operationalization, but in theory, I like them a lot. Having favored class: any is a really big benefit, and worrying about multiclassing XP penalties is what keeps certain over-the-top optimized builds from seeing daylight in more conservative settings.

[Eldariel]

As an aside, I really like the favored class rules. I'm not necessarily 100% on board with their operationalization, but in theory, I like them a lot. Having favored class: any is a really big benefit, and worrying about multiclassing XP penalties is what keeps certain over-the-top optimized builds from seeing daylight in more conservative settings.

Meh, singleclassed builds tend to be more powerful anyways thanks to the whole "casters rule"-thing. But I agree that they have a function; they just don't really fulfill it elegantly, not least of the reasons being that each race only has one favored class. I personally prefer just having good abilities over a few levels in the higher levels (around 7-14 and 17-20; first stuff is still available for dualclassed characters while the latter is only there for singleclassed characters) of core classes and prcs to reward sticking through all the way along with racial substitution levels to reward characters for picking classes their races have natural aptitude too.

I agree that Favored Class: Any is a great advantage, but that's a bad thing; Humans are already the most powerful Core race and making most builds only for them just further pushes most optimized builds to start with "Human X". Reward for sticking through rather than penalty for spreading out just feels like a more solid system, especially since the penalties don't apply rationally (like, they encourage taking only one-two levels in every class you go for and Dwarf Clerics are somehow more limited than Dwarf Fighters).

EDIT: And this is totally off-topic. Wops. My bad. Do keep writing though, this is an interesting diary to read.

[Straw_Man]

  I like F & K's rule for that: if it's favoured class you can qualify for any alternate racial variant.

[pfooti]

That's a pretty interesting idea.

Okay, back to the actual thread. As I mentioned above, it turns out we made level 2 last session. Our next session will have a fair amount of combat in it, and I'm thinking about possibilities. I was thinking I would still shape wormtail belt (+2 NA) and dissolving spittle (1d6 acid as a ranged touch). I'd add Rageclaws to that. As neat as sphinx claws are (1d8 damage, whee!), I think I like the durability from rageclaws more.

In a related note, can anyone tell me why I'd ever shape bloodtalons? Maybe if I wanted to get the weapon finesse thing at level 11 when I get the dual bind, but as far as I can tell, the claws from bloodtalons are strictly worse than those from rageclaws (smaller damage die, and the extra damage isn't guaranteed since it's a bleed effect), and rageclaws adds better survivability. I don't need +2 spot per essentia that badly.

So, the question is: do I keep the shield and stay in the back? I could even go without rageclaws on the totem bind and stick with some other mobility bind (blink shirt?) and go around spitting at people. At 2nd level, dissolving spittle is still pretty sexy - +3 attack, ranged touch, 3d6 acid damage. Claws would be 2 attacks, +6 each, 1d6 + 5 each. The claws do more damage if they both hit, but I have to give up 2 AC to do it and put myself more in harm's way. And I could still morningstar people to the face - +3 to hit, 1d8+2 damage.

Hmm, seems pretty similar, and having the claws and spit shaped would give me maximum benefit, even if my AC was only 17 or so.

[pfooti]

Session 2 report:

We leveled to 2 before the session. Thoroughly disgusted with the totemist skill list, I opted to put 2 ranks into spellcraft, as the DM has been making us actually identify most potions. Considered, not for the first time, dipping incarnate for easy access to skillmonkey binds, especially between adventures. More on that below.

Bound sphinx claws to my totem chakra. Between the totemist feature and expanded soulmeld capacity, I can put 3 essentia in there, bringing my attack line to +6/+6 for 1d8+5. Not bad at 2nd level. Girallion arms without multiattack doesn't seem good. I was also seduced by the bigger damage die over rageclaws. Probably tactically unsound, but it ended up working out, and an 18 AC is still pretty dang good.

Other shaped melds were dissolving spittle and wormtail belt. WB was solid. DS was still useful, although less so. I'm also unsure about whether or not dissolving spittle counts toward my totemist total melds shaped limit. Turns out, it probably doesn't (see my posts in the incarnum handbook), which means I've been running around short a soulmeld. Oh well.

The session was primarily combat. Lots of goblins, the occasional bugbear or gnoll. I'm not sure how well I can honestly evaluate combat performance, because I critted two major bad buys. So it was excellent, with the evisceration, but you can't count on rolling like that all the time. Still, having two attacks is great. Either way, the Beefy Bugbear and Goblin Neceomancer both got one-shot with my amazing claws, and a lot of goblins died too.

The more I look at possibilities, the less sure I am about the build. I might not go for multiattack at 3, for example. Girallion Arms doesn't outstrip sphinx claws until you can put a lot of extra damage dice per attack, which means I'd be taking MA at 3, but not really using it until 9, when I can double-up on my totem chakra. I'm also worried about using all my melds and feats on offense. I tend to be a much more mobility- and defense-focused player.

So, assuming you don't have multiclass penalties and aren't going totem rager, incarnate-2 is worth considering as a dip. You can shape 3 utility melds, get a bump to your will and fort saves, get detect evil at will, and a moderate ac buff 1/day. The chakra bind is decent too. At low levels, a soulspark can do good ranged damage (+13 attack, 1d8+1 damage base). At high levels, being immune to charm effects is handy. You do delay your progression, including bumping your dual totem feat to CL12.

On the other hand, given my new information about how Shape Soulmeld works, I might be able to just stick with straight totemist. I wouldn't get the between-adventuring utility of things like Mage's Spectacles, but I can still pick up Mantle of Flame at with my level 3 feat. MoF will be awesome. It's like having a huge AC, only made out of fire. Ask the badguys: "do you want to attack the totemist who has been punching you in the face, or the guy in the heavy armor. Oh, the totemist is on fire, so you'd take 3d6 damage each time you hit him. Just a little FYI there, a heads up, you know?" Bad guy sez: "Man, this job sucks" and runs away.

[pfooti]

I've been chatting with some party mates, and it seems like I might really need to change my build to Totemist 2 / Incarnate 2 / Totemist +16 or something like that. If you scroll back to the first post, you can see the rest of the party. We're missing a generalist caster, so mage spectacles would help a lot with Use Magic Device rolls for scrolls and wands. We're also missing a party Face. You'd think the Paladin, Cleric, or Dread Necromancer (cha-based, and he isn't using an Army of Undead) would help, but not really. The dread necro took the abusive trait, and the Paladin and Cleric are both constantly hounding people about how Tyr is the "One True God", to the point of already alienating the town priest (of Chauntea). So *somebody* is going to have to be Diplomacy / Gather Information guy.

Two levels of Incarnate gives +3 will saves, detect evil at will, 3 melds, one of which can be bound to the Crown chakra, short-term essentia gain (although long-term loss), -1 BAB, fewer HD and skill points. But there's a ton of flexibility: go with silvertongue mask and truthseeker goggles when in town, swap them for mantle of flame, bluesteel bracers and acrobat boots when dungeoneering, and so on. Or strongheart vest, or pauldrons of health.

The biggest issue is delaying the Uber-Charge combo of thunderstep boots, pounce (arms chakra sphinx claws), girallion arms (totem bind, multiattack feat), double totem chakra (heart of fire bind) to around level 12. But, I'd get mantle of flame without a feat, which actually clears some things up (and I might be able to retrain dissolving spittle as well).

Any feedback or advice about this?

[woodenbandman]

Good deal in the short run, bad deal at level 20. If you ever want to have a prayer when attempting to grapple the tarrasque (and you can, with a few feats' investment), don't do it. Also, those utility soulmelds don't seem particularly worth it to me, because you're getting basically half ranks in a skill. That's the Bardic Knack bard's job, and the bard can cast Improvisation.

The generalist caster thingy might work out for you, but you'd only have like a +10 to UMD at 20th level unless you bought an item that boosts it. You COULD fill that role... but do you really want to? It seems to me that your shtick is supposed to be the beatstick of doom.

Some of the incarnate soulmelds are fucking sick, like Incarnate Avatar, but you have to be a high level to use those. In my view, the Totemist meld list is far superior.

[pfooti]

Yeah, it's iffy. If I don't do that, we're kind of SOL on those skillmonkey skills. The party really doesn't have anyone that's remotely able to fill it (no bard, no int-based caster, and the charisma-based characters are RPing as jerks). You're right that the utility skill melds are actually kind of underwhelming at higher levels (especially without synergy bonuses). The party scout has too many other skills to keep up with (search, disable device, open lock, and some knowledges) that he doesn't have time for social stuff either.

The other thing I was noticing, though, is that there are a number of good melds that I was planning on getting anyway for in-combat with shape soulmeld. I already have dissolving spittle, and mantle of flame was probably going to be my level 3 feat. If thunderstep boots or mauling gauntlets were incarnate melds, it'd be a no-brainer.

Then again, parties have survived without Faces in the past. This DM seems to be emphasizing the town-RP and interaction a bit more than I'm used to, but it's only level 2 anyway.

I was, however, looking forward to the Grapple thing. I was considering actually spending the feat on imp grapple, so I could free up a chakra bind later on (and start grappling before level 9, which is when you can bind totem avatar to get you imp grapple). This would, counter-intuitively, make that happen faster. I wouldn't need to spend the feats on dissolving spittle and mantle of flame, and could probably afford to ditch cobalt charge as well (right now, I just had it for the +1 essentia, and I don't intend to make a pounce-monster with this build). So I could get imp grapple pretty quickly if I didn't have to take shape soulmeld all the time. I could probably afford to just stick around with 1 level of the meld, but at level 2, I could shape planar chausable or acrobat/airstep boots in addition to dissolving spittle and mantle of flame. Or spellward shirt. There's a lot of in-combat buffs you can get from unbound incarnate melds, but to get the combat buffs from the totemist melds you pretty much have to bind the melds.

[Sinfire Titan]

Good deal in the short run, bad deal at level 20. If you ever want to have a prayer when attempting to grapple the tarrasque (and you can, with a few feats' investment), don't do it. Also, those utility soulmelds don't seem particularly worth it to me, because you're getting basically half ranks in a skill. That's the Bardic Knack bard's job, and the bard can cast Improvisation.

The generalist caster thingy might work out for you, but you'd only have like a +10 to UMD at 20th level unless you bought an item that boosts it. You COULD fill that role... but do you really want to? It seems to me that your shtick is supposed to be the beatstick of doom.

Some of the incarnate soulmelds are fucking sick, like Incarnate Avatar, but you have to be a high level to use those. In my view, the Totemist meld list is far superior.

As of now, the Incarnate Avatar would give him very little benefit. At EL 20 he'd be getting a +5 bonus to AC while it is shaped (and it wouldn't count against his Totemist Soulmelds).

In all honesty I'd recommend shifting the Dissolving Spittle to the original class's melds and shaping the Mage Spectacles and Vitality Belt. 4-6 Essentia in the Specs gives a +12/+16 bonus to UMD, which is nothing to sneeze at. Spending CC ranks is the next best thing you can do. When you don't need UMD, invest it in either Spittle or the Belt to bolster yourself. At some point you would be well suited to getting Breastplate and grabbing the Incarnate Avatar over Dissolving Spittle (seeing as your Totemist side can give a more dangerous ranged attack on it's own).

That's if you choose to go Incarnate 2. Sticking with Totemist to 20 still gives you some ass-whuppin authority: The only person in your group who has the authority over your is the Cleric, and that's only if he's a smart Cleric.

The DN is slightly stronger than you, but you can tear him in half if he screws up even once. His undead don't stand a chance either. I'd treat him as an equal, just to be on the safe side, but remember that you can take him if worst comes to worst.

[Straw_Man]

  Use feats to bind Naberius for a Face; seems less wasteful than going Incarnate.

[Sinfire Titan]

  Use feats to bind Naberius for a Face; seems less wasteful than going Incarnate.

Have someone else do it. You need both Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder to get the Silver Tongue benefit of Naberius. You'd be better off dipping for a level.

[pfooti]

The main reason I'm considering Incarnate is because I want Dissolving Spittle and Mantle of Flame as binds. I could take those as feats. But I was thinking: If I'm going to spend 2 feats on these melds, why not just dip a level or two of incarnate, get the two melds, and give a big boost to my between-adventure utility? Then I could take imp unarmed strike and imp grapple instead of those two souldmeld feats.

Mantle of Flame is an insanely good meld. In my party, there are three main beefsticks and a dread necromancer. The two other beefsticks are (going to be when we can buy it) plate-wearers. A cleric/ordained champion of Tyr, and a paladin. Setting myself on fire, even for just a little damage (2d6 for a while, since I doubt I could afford more than 1 point of essentia for it) is plenty to discourage many monsters from attacking me - the DM plays things pretty tactically smart. They may shoot at me with arrows, but it's unlikely I'll get sworded all that often when there's other PCs around to attack instead. Plus which, Mantle of Flame is free damage during grapples (and it stacks with heart of fire for grappleflames).

So, the primary thing is that I want MoFlame and DSpit, and I felt like getting a will save boost and some utility later was worth the slight delay in acquiring Total Asskickery. The biggest problem I see is not qualifying for Double Chakra at CL9.

[Bozwevial]

This is what you reminded me of when you were talking about Mantle of Flame.

That is all.

(By the way, thanks for starting this--it's been quite informative.)

[sonofzeal]

If you're going Grapple, I'd consider a couple Maug grafts when you can afford it; becoming a spiked monstrosity of spikiness whose fists lock around the enemy's limbs is awesome, and you keep the item slots open for soulmelds while getting some bang for your buck!  And as far as I can tell, there's nothing about needing to be a construct to receive the grafts.  Might make a good sidequest seeking out a Maug to graft them on to you, but their entire racial goal is to gain money and resources for the building of more Maugs so it shouldn't be a hard buy.

[pfooti]

Oho, those look pretty nifty. I might need to figure out how to get a Good incarnate to Acheron for the grafting, but it might work out okay. My DM does like things that are somewhat ridiculous RP-wise (see also: the Paladin adventuring (unknowingly, IC) with a dread necromancer. When he does find out, shit's gonna fly.)

On the grapple front, my read of the melds indicates to me that Girallion arms and Sphinx claws don't stack - they're both competence bonuses, but it would stack with Mauling Gauntlets (a morale bonus). Is this right?

[sonofzeal]

Oho, those look pretty nifty. I might need to figure out how to get a Good incarnate to Acheron for the grafting, but it might work out okay. My DM does like things that are somewhat ridiculous RP-wise (see also: the Paladin adventuring (unknowingly, IC) with a dread necromancer. When he does find out, shit's gonna fly.)

On the grapple front, my read of the melds indicates to me that Girallion arms and Sphinx claws don't stack - they're both competence bonuses, but it would stack with Mauling Gauntlets (a morale bonus). Is this right?

I can't answer the Incarnum question (though, to my knowledge, the only named bonuses that stack are "dodge" and "circumstance"), but it should be possible with some work to find some Maug mercenaries on the material plane.  They're mentioned working here like that, but there's all sorts of plothook potential - maybe there's none in your kingdom, but a squad is working for a neighbouring land that isn't on the best of terms, or maybe they're currently engaged on the battlefront.  Still, a trip to Acheron could be fun....

[pfooti]

Oh, by the way: Hilarious, Bozwevial!

Also: I'll talk to the DM about the Maug stuff. This character's father is a "respectable businessman", the kind which would clearly have links to extraplanar mercenaries. Might work out.

Finally: Thanks for all the varying opinions on the Incarnate dip decision. I think the best thing to do is try it out and see how it works out, then report it back here. That's what this diary is supposed to be for, anyway. There will definitely be issues later on - at CL 17, I'll have 11 total melds available, and only 10 chakras to use. Maybe by then I'll take double chakra again, or maybe the campaign will be over by then. But I'm very amused by the thought of using the phase cloak's shoulder bind to walk, unhindered, past the beefsticks and battlefield control spells (this DM knows how to use casters right) over to the enemy spellcaster to give him a Giant Flaming Hug. We'll see how often the DM has a "random encounter" on the ethereal, that kind of thing probably either happens almost all the time (he's trying to discourage the use of the bind) or almost never (he can't be bothered adding ethereal-phase combat to the already complex encounter).

[pfooti]

Alright, a report. Last night's session was a whole lot of fun.

Once again, I regret using sphinx claws over rageclaws. I really, really, really need to give up on the d8 claws and just suck it up. I spent about a third of the session unconscious, at -12 HP or so (we're playing the death at negative con rule, but rageclaws still lets you fall unconscious at -10 w/o essentia). Now, because I was unconscious, I didn't die, and if I had been conscious and at -12 HP, I probably would have died. It was the end of a long day in the dungeon and the cleric had no spells left other than the cure minor he used to stabilize me after the giant bugbear zombie smooshed me.

All that aside, though, the Totemist is still proving to be very powerful and flexible at this point. My melds are Sphinx Claws (totem, expanded capacity), Lammasu Mantle, Wormtail Belt, and Dissolving Spittle (shape soulmeld feat). I have 4 points of essentia, so I usually walk around with 2 in the claws and 1 each in the belt and mantle, with the spittle empty. Reallocate as needed based on combat.

Dissolving spittle is still useful - there were times when I really couldn't get into useful combat range, so spitting for 2d6 as a ranged touch attack was just what I needed. Although, when I could get into combat range, having two claws that hit with a +6 bonus for 1d8+5 was pretty rock and roll. Had a 20 AC against evil creatures, which was enough for all the little mooks, but the bugbear zombie and his +8 to attack beat me down pretty fast.

I looked at all the things I'd be delaying if I took levels of Incarnate, and as nice as some of the incarnate melds are, I think I will pass on that overall. My new plan is to take Shape Soulmeld (Mantle of Flame) for the dr mcninja move at level 3, then multiattack at 6.

Even still, it's a slowly-developing combo to use Girallion arms in a many-attack strategy. At 6, I can bind sphinx claws to my hands for pounce and girallion arms to my totem for the 4 attacks. It's not actually until level 10, however, until I can actually do the sphinx claws - girallion arms - heart of fire trick for 4 claw attacks with fire damage and pounce. I can do the girallion arms - heart of fire trick at 9 with double chakra, but don't get a 3rd bind until 10.

More in a bit, but that was the original report.

[pfooti]

So, I'm still hemming and hawing about the girallion arms thing. Once you can combo it with Heart of Fire, it's very good. But until that time, it's no better than sphinx claws and you still have to take multiattack to MAKE it good. But whatever - I'm happy with the totemist as-is, either way.

[woodenbandman]

Multiattack is a great totemist feat at low levels, though. Once you are able to hit with the -5, you can probably retrain it (since totemists can get their attack bonus up trivially easily).

Also, grapple ftw.