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Kuroimaken
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« on: January 25, 2009, 11:11:29 AM » |
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Here's the thing.
I have a friend who is too enamoured with Pathfinder to see what a complete waste of data it is. I want to show him how nothing's changed.
In order to do that, I have to destroy his campaign completely. I'll have to be a complete, cheating bastard who doesn't care for anyone's enjoyment.
What's the best way to show him Pathfinder is a band-aid made of shit spat out by a Beholder?
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Sunic_Flames
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2009, 11:47:54 AM » |
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Casters. 95% sure they never fixed the Wish loop. Have fun, starting at level 2 with Arcane Mastery or the normal Binding level without it.
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juton
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2009, 03:38:13 PM » |
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Druids and Clerics have been nerfed. Luckily Wizards have not, especially generalist Wizards. At level 8 they can add 1/2 their CL in metamagic feats per day on the fly, not quite as good as Divine Metamagic but it's good. From their be a GOD.
We could be more helpful if we knew what level and what additional books you can use, if any.
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X-Codes
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2009, 05:27:48 PM » |
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AFAIK while Druids and Clerics had their class abilities nerfed, they still have all the same potency of their spells.
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2009, 08:51:09 PM » |
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We'd have started low level, but thankfully I wasn't the only player that voiced being against playing Pathfinder so we ended up with regular 3.5 instead.
I do think we should expand on this thread, though. Think of it as a safekeeping mechanism for my sanity.
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Eldariel
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 02:21:53 AM » |
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Pathfinder has fixed a lot though, that's undeniable. Making Wildshape-mechanisms work on a basic level (although the new mechanism needs a bit more work to maintain the uniqueness of the forms), rebuilding all the classes that suffered of horrible construction (martial classes practically lost their dead levels and even casters have actual class features now), fixing some of the broken spells (so far only the Polymorph-line really), etc. Wish also appears fixed as it no longer has a listed ability to generate items. Gate doesn't seem to be listed as a spell at all; may be they suggest using the original version (which is of course dumb) as it's listed on two lists and as one Domain-ability. Well, whatever, I suppose. Just, point being, it's not like the progress is 0.
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McPoyo
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 03:21:51 AM » |
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in reference to spell fixes: Darkness.
That's all I'm saying about pathfinder and their "spell fixes".
Okay I lied, compare/contrast 3.5 Miracle/Wish and pathfinders.
There, now I'm done on that one.
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A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.
Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY! They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.
Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.
Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time. I give you much fu. Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie. |
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juton
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 03:34:25 AM » |
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The problem is Pathfinder doesn't know what to fix or how to fix it. Fighters hit slightly harder now, but they gain no defence against the things which still PWN them mercilessly. A Wizard's power has barely been curtailed, I think glitterdust has been nerfed slightly off the top of my head but BFC like Solid Fog and Wall of Force are exactly the same.
The biggest challenge for the Pathfinder team is they get feedback from every class of player. The idiots who think Fighters are better than Wizards because they do the most damage tend to be the loudest on those boards.
If Pathfinder gave all melee classes more options and nerfed the Wizard and the Sorcerer as much nerfed the Cleric and the Druid then I could be enthused. I am not.
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McPoyo
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2009, 04:46:01 AM » |
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The biggest challenge for the Pathfinder team is they get feedback from every class of player. The idiots who think Fighters are better than Wizards because they do more damage at level one with a greatsword vs a magic missile tend to be the loudest on those boards.
Fixed. Also, Glitterdust did have a small nerf, but most of the shutdowncombat style control spells didn't have a whole helluva lot done to them. |
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A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.
Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY! They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.
Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.
Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time. I give you much fu. Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie. |
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juton
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2009, 05:05:14 AM » |
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The biggest challenge for the Pathfinder team is they get feedback from every class of player. The idiots who think Fighters are better than Wizards because they do more damage at level one with a greatsword vs a magic missile tend to be the loudest on those boards.
Fixed. Also, Glitterdust did have a small nerf, but most of the shutdowncombat style control spells didn't have a whole helluva lot done to them. If someone is complaining that their Wizard isn't doing the same damage as a Fighter, do you really think that their optimization extends beyond both maximizing and empowering a fireball? |
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McPoyo
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2009, 05:21:08 AM » |
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Oh God don't get me started on that. I left a campaign recently due people who thought attaching maximize and empower to a fireball spell was the be-all end-all of combat efficacy  |
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A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.
Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY! They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.
Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.
Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time. I give you much fu. Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie. |
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BowenSilverclaw
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2009, 05:27:03 AM » |
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Please tell me more, I could use a good laugh  |
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"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!" You caught a fish. It was awesome.  |
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juton
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2009, 05:38:14 AM » |
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Please tell me more, I could use a good laugh I played in one group that banned the Scout class because it was OP, I believe they also banned composite bows as well. One encounter lasted over two hours because we where stuck using crappy ranged attacks. A group in the same town had this bizarre reverse arms race where everyone anti-optimized because they didn't want to overshadow the rest of the group. They stated this as smugly as possible. Fighters stopped powerattacking, Wizards stopped maximizing fireballs (laughable I know), but since Wizards started using BFC (to leave people alive for the fighters) fights actually got easier. The players thought the DM was making fights easier to compensate, it was fucking bizarre. Then they switched over to 4e, that surprise anyone? |
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BowenSilverclaw
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2009, 05:41:10 AM » |
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So they found the GOD-theme on their own, but only because they were trying to avoid optimization? And when it turned out it worked, they blamed it on the DM?
Wow...
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"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!" You caught a fish. It was awesome. |
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Sunic_Flames
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2009, 08:25:13 AM » |
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Pathfinder has fixed a lot though, that's undeniable. Making Wildshape-mechanisms work on a basic level (although the new mechanism needs a bit more work to maintain the uniqueness of the forms), rebuilding all the classes that suffered of horrible construction (martial classes practically lost their dead levels and even casters have actual class features now), fixing some of the broken spells (so far only the Polymorph-line really), etc. Wish also appears fixed as it no longer has a listed ability to generate items. Gate doesn't seem to be listed as a spell at all; may be they suggest using the original version (which is of course dumb) as it's listed on two lists and as one Domain-ability. Well, whatever, I suppose. Just, point being, it's not like the progress is 0.
Except you still have to fucking dumpster dive to use it. And turning into a bear is gravy anyways. You already have a class feature better than the beatsticks, making yourself also better, while shitting lightning bolts is purely academic. So now they're one beatstick and a caster at the same time. This would be an 'OH NOES!' moment, except that you don't need any beatsticks at all, and certainly don't need two. That's called Paizils trick the gullible. I cast Resurgence. |
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Sunic_Flames
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2009, 08:26:33 AM » |
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So they found the GOD-theme on their own, but only because they were trying to avoid optimization? And when it turned out it worked, they blamed it on the DM?
Wow...
Epic Fail is Epic. |
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Anklebite
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2009, 11:10:22 AM » |
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Epic Fail is Epic.
quoted for truth, justice and cookies... siriously, how'd they manage that? I mean sure, when my group first started up DnD, we ran around blasting the hell out of everything that moves.... but with two arcane casters and a druid, along with a monk a twink rogue and a barbarian.... it worked anyways by sheer force of damage. |
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I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2009, 01:27:31 PM » |
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So they found the GOD-theme on their own, but only because they were trying to avoid optimization? And when it turned out it worked, they blamed it on the DM?
Wow...
Springtime for Vecna? |
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2009, 03:04:03 PM » |
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So they found the GOD-theme on their own, but only because they were trying to avoid optimization? And when it turned out it worked, they blamed it on the DM?
Wow...
If I were the DM, I would have been temped to throw the group up against a superior BFC mage with some piddly minions or summons, shut them down, and slowly wittle away their health with tiny amounts of damage...  |
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My balancing 3.5 compendiumElemental mage test gameQuotesIt is a shame stupidity isn't painful. Totally true. Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment. Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?" I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife. A dull, rusty knife. A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife. Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: **** I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet. When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!" Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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bayar
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2009, 03:24:32 PM » |
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Epic Fail is Epic.
quoted for truth, justice and cookies... siriously, how'd they manage that? I mean sure, when my group first started up DnD, we ran around blasting the hell out of everything that moves.... but with two arcane casters and a druid, along with a monk a twink rogue and a barbarian.... it worked anyways by sheer force of damage. So...you spent more than 500 Gold on enchantments for your level 29 rogue ? :LOL (sorry, couldnt resist) |
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