Telthor: Low-level incorporeality (updated with a handy guide!)

[Emy]

The Telthor Minihandbook (it's a link. clicky.)

So I've been playing around with a low-level incorporeal build. Specifically, using the Telthor template from Unapproachable East (page 75).

Basically, it's +2 LA, changes your type to fey, makes you incorporeal, and not much else. The downside is that if you're bound to a specific location. If you're more than a mile away from it, you take 1 damage per minute. This could be pretty easily ignored by someone with an unlimited healing fountain (Dread Necromancer) except that you wouldn't be able to sleep. So clearly, damage reduction is the way to go, unless you want to suppress your supernatural abilities by staying in an anti-magic field 24/7.

The easiest/lowest level ways I've found of ignoring this 1 damage per minute are as follows:
Cleric 1, Metallic Dragon domain.
Dread Necromancer 2, Lich body class feature, nongood
Fey Skin, feat, requires Fey Heritage, nonlawful
DR doesn't stop damage from (Su) abilities. Bound to the Land is (Su).

Alternatively, you can get rid of all your abilities (including the "take damage outside of home region" one) by applying the Dustform Creature and Incarnate Construct templates. As far as I can tell, you keep your subtypes through the type changes from Fey -> Construct -> Humanoid.

Here's the basic build I was thinking of:

Magic-blooded Telthor Lesser Aasimar Dread Necromancer 2 (ECL 4)
Type: Fey (Extraplanar, Incorporeal)
Feats: Tomb-tainted Soul, (flaw) Eschew Materials Ghostly Grasp (Libris Mortis p27)

Eschew materials to get around not being able to hold components. For Animate Dead, later on, I'd assume you could tell one of your friends to place the gigantic onyx gems required in a corpse's eye sockets. Or get ghost touch gloves or something (I'm pretty certain they exist).
With a negative energy damaging incorporeal touch attack, it's almost like being a real ghost.

Questions / Problems / Miscellany

1.

The creature's type changes to "fey," and it gains the incorporeal subtype.

(Fey Type)
Fey eat, sleep, and breathe.
...
(Incorporeal Subtype)
It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks.
...
(Nonabilities)
A creature with no Strength score can’t exert force, usually because it has no physical body or because it doesn’t move.

"Fey eat, sleep, and breathe."
 - I don't see anything that makes incorporeal creatures exempt from needing to eat. So, by RAW, do all Telthor die of thirst/starvation shortly after they're formed?
"Fey eat, sleep, and breathe."
 - There aren't any major problems with this.
"Fey eat, sleep, and breathe."
 - Having to breathe limits how well you can stay inside objects, but you could hold your breath before you go wall/floor-diving, so it's not that bad.
Thanks, Libris Mortis.

2.
As an incorporeal creature, a Telthor can't hold spell components. For most, this can be bypassed by Eschew Materials, but not for spells requiring expensive components or foci. Telthor Clerics run into a similar problem, in that they are physically unable to hold their holy symbol.

3.
A Telthor cannot take advantage of most magic items, barring some way to get ghost touch everything, or massive amounts of money spent on ectoplasmic ichor (Libris Mortis). Vow of Poverty here we come? There is ectoplasmic equipment in Ghostwalk but I have no idea how it works, so I'm flipping through that book right now.
Ghostly Grasp pretty much solves these.

4.
Does it gain the augmented subtype?

5.
Is Telthor Telepathy close enough to Telepathy to qualify for Mindsight? I'd assume this is greatly DM-dependent.

6.
My tentative "Ask the DM these things" list:

• "Does this character really have to eat and breathe?"
• "Does this character really need to sleep?" (hey, not sleeping would be a nice advantage, and it kinda makes sense)
• "Does this character qualify for Mindsight?"

Any suggestions for improvements or workarounds for a Telthor's weaknesses would be appreciated; I'd like to figure out how to use one effectively as a player character.

Additions in maroon. Stuff that's been dealt with or otherwise removed in gray strikeout.

[Midnight_v]

Hmm... this is interesting. Doesn't anything you hold become incorpreal as well? Like "your sword" or "clothes"? I mean isn't touching things and "at will" sort of situation for them otherwise how the hell do they hit you.
About the hit point perminute. It shuold be easy enough to gain fast healing 1. *shrug*
I don't think dr would work for that for some odd reason.
Interesting stuff though.

[Emy]

Doesn't anything you hold become incorpreal as well? Like "your sword" or "clothes"?

I honestly have no idea. I'd really like this to be the case, so if you have a reference for that let me know. It's somewhat unlikely because of...

Ghostly Grasp (feat, from Libris Mortis) needs: Cha 15, incorporeal subtype. Lets you wear/wield/use corporeal gear.

Altered my original post to include Ghostly Grasp.

edit: Yeah, a way to make your equipment turn incorporeal too would be way cooler than the above feat.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Yeah, there are ways of making incorporeals able to touch material things. Anyways, why not be (or have) a caster so you (or another person) make food and then make it incorporeal. There has to be an easy to do that...

So far this looks consistent, in depth, and flavorful.

[Emy]

The incorporeal subtype was updated in MM3. The main important thing here is that

Any equipment worn or carried by an incorporeal creature is also incorporeal as long as it remains in the creature's possession. An object that the creature relinquishes loses its incorporeal quality (and the creature loses the ability to manipulate the object).

So pick something up with Ghostly Grasp -> it becomes incorporeal.

Yeah, there are ways of making incorporeals able to touch material things. Anyways, why not be (or have) a caster so you (or another person) make food and then make it incorporeal. There has to be an easy to do that...

So far this looks consistent, in depth, and flavorful.

I still think it's silly that a creature with no body still needs to eat, drink, and breathe (by RAW). As a player character, you can avoid dying of starvation by taking a feat (Ghostly Grasp), or by having a wizard buddy capable of casting 3rd level spells (Permeable Form from Lords of Madness in the Tsochar section), or many more options at higher levels.

But the poor example creature (the Telthor Wolf)...

It's all alone, protecting a remote area of the Rashemi woods. It was spontaneously created by the untapped spirit magic of the lands only a few short nights ago, but this already feels like an eternity. It tries to use its animal empathy to get the other wolves to bring it food. It succeeds. However, the Telthor Wolf cannot eat the meat they offer. Within its 3 Int mind, it tries to think of options. It can either stay here, and die of hunger and thirst, or leave, and die of the magic that binds it to this place. Its life has been short and painful. Its death will be long and painful.

tl;dr it doesn't make any sense for a creature to need feats or a wizard with spells from completely unrelated sourcebooks, just to survive for more than a few days.

According to Libris Mortis, page 140, not having a physical body means that you don't have to eat, drink, or breathe. I'm glad that was actually written down somewhere.

Trying to figure out how to interpret the "Attacks" section of the template. It's basically something like this:

Code:

melee attacks -> incorporeal touch attacks
if base creature used weapons {
     melee weapon attacks -> melee touch attacks
     loses all ranged attacks }
dex instead of str to melee attacks (as standard for incorporeal subtype)

7.
Are the Telthor's melee weapons are resolved as melee touch attacks, or incorporeal touch attacks?

8.
Does this mean the Telthor can never make any ranged attacks?

9.
If so, can it be bypassed by the base creature not using melee weapons before becoming a Telthor?


aside: oh man why don't Dread Necromancers have Parching Touch? It's like Chill Touch only better.
Arcane Disciple (Thirst) is really tempting, even though it's not a particularly strong option. It also uses 8 of the DN's 10 skill points assuming 10 int
With the Spellgifted Necromancy trait on the character I posted in the OP, that's 3 touches per casting for 1d8 (charnel touch) + 1d6 dessication + save DC 17 vs 1 Con damage & dehydration. poke poke poke. Well, it's no glitterdust, but it'll do.

[awaken DM golem]

I don't have access to U-E, so no comment on that.

Savage Species gave Incorporeal an LA of +2, and you could get an expensive Ritual to just add it, as an acquired template.
XPH / SRD has the little used PrC that gives Incorporeal in exchange for losing 4 "Caster" Levels ... bad ... but not far off the SS template.
Wish can do the SS ritual.
PAO once or twice can certainly give it, with the downside of possibly being dispelled. This is the cheapest and easiest route.

There was a very longwinded argument for taking limited levels, of the SS racial classes;
but I can't find it, and the board big shot didn't weigh in to support it.
If so, a Shadow less than full, is Incorporeal at level 1, with it's racial class.
You are also Undead, and turnable.

I don't usually discuss houserules, but I give a Commoner 1 with Incorporeal, as a 1st level racial class,
and don't bother with the LA buy-off. Close enough to be kinda RAI, but not strictly RAW.

[BowenSilverclaw]

There was a very longwinded argument for taking limited levels, of the SS racial classes;
but I can't find it, and the board big shot didn't weigh in to support it.
If so, a Shadow less than full, is Incorporeal at level 1, with it's racial class.
You are also Undead, and turnable.

Except that SS explicitely states that you need to take all levels of a racial class before you can take any regular class levels.

[PhaedrusXY]

Necropolitans can arguably turn into incorporeals (Shadows mainly) via Alter Self + Metamorphic Transfer. Necropolitan Psion1/Wiz5 with Practiced Manifester and Metamorphic Transfer could do it. The main limitation is needing Manifester level 5 to take Metamorphic Transfer, so there might be ways to cheese that in earlier.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Savage Species: Assume Supernatural Ability feat (and possibly Improved Assume Supernatural Ability, if you want to get rid of that -2 on a lot of rolls).

[Negative Zero]

The argument involved the WotC site's enhancements that gave templates you didn't have to finish.

[PhaedrusXY]

Savage Species: Assume Supernatural Ability feat (and possibly Improved Assume Supernatural Ability, if you want to get rid of that -2 on a lot of rolls).

I didn't suggest that because alot of people don't allow Savage Species, but yeah, that would work too and wouldn't cost you a caster level.

[BowenSilverclaw]

I see your point, I'm pretty flexible as a DM though, so it never was an issue for me

[Negative Zero]

The easiest way I know to get DR is to take Toughness and then Roll With It to get DR 2/-.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Assuming DR works with Telthor ofcourse, as mentioned before...

[ksbsnowowl]

I agree with Midnight V, I doubt a DM would allow DR to prevent the damage from the telthor being out of his home area.  You aren't reducing physical damage via tough skin, etc.  If I were DMing this character (which is an awesome concept, BTW), I would require fast healing to deal with it; Damage Reduction wouldn't prevent it.

Quick ways to get fast healing:

Half-troll template (Fiend Folio)
Nature's Warrior 1 (Comp Warrior)
Warshaper 4 (Comp Warrior)
The Tainted Raver template (Heroes of Horror)

[BowenSilverclaw]

Feral also works, assuming you apply it before Telthor and Theltor can be applied to Monstrous Humanoids...

[Tshern]

Or being a Cleric.

[ksbsnowowl]

Or being a Cleric.

Yeah, be a cleric or druid with the Touch of Healing reserve feat.  It would only keep you at half health, but it is an option.  Probably better options, but this is there.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Or Lesser Vigor/Persisted Mass Lesser Vigor, but that can get feat intensive real fast...

[Midnight_v]

I agree with Midnight V, I doubt a DM would allow DR to prevent the damage from the telthor being out of his home area.  You aren't reducing physical damage via tough skin, etc.  If I were DMing this character (which is an awesome concept, BTW), I would require fast healing to deal with it; Damage Reduction wouldn't prevent it.

Quick ways to get fast healing:

Half-troll template (Fiend Folio)
Nature's Warrior 1 (Comp Warrior)
Warshaper 4 (Comp Warrior)
The Tainted Raver template (Heroes of Horror)

Thanks I was thinking of the Warshaper actually, but Natures warrior seems to be a better option, if you're a caster. You're already losing 2 Cl to use this template so... there you go.
However. . .
an incoporeal wolf that suddenly makes its its appendages grow and attacks with Claw, Claw, bite,tailslap, wingbuffet, tentacle rake, sting, gore. . . etc...
Is suddenly more horriffic in my mind.
 The spirit of the land is clearly not to be fucked with.
I also think most of those spells don't work because they have to heal over the course of 8 hours of sleep (assuming you still need to sleep?)