Knight building for a new player

[sombrastewart]

Okay, I checked the boards, but didn't find anything that fits what I'm looking for.

I'm going to be running a 4-person game in my homebrew setting (a sequestered plane), where the characters are good-aligned and preparing to depart on a heroic quest.

Basically, one of my players is a newer player that wants to play a sword and board Knight. Now, I don't have a problem with this. I like the class, I hope he has fun, I want this to work. I'm trying to work out a way to outfit the character well. He'll start at level 7, and has his option of rolling his stats or taking the following array: 15, 14, 16, 16, 15, 11

Available sources are WotC books, though subject to review. I don't mind some fun stuff, but I do want to keep power from getting out of hand. I'd also like to keep this a simpler build.  Bear in mind, he's turned down Tome of Battle in favor of something a little easier to work with.  It's a step up from the fighter he played in another campaign I ran.  He's also pretty settled on human, which is fine; I have a hook worked out for that.

Bear in mind, I'm probably also going to replace Mounted Combat and any mention of Weapon Focus: Lance will be available for Weapon Focus: Any. If it was just a mounted charger, this would be easy, but given that the group is going to be involved in some dungeon crawling, I'd prefer to give him something he'd get a chance to use.

I'm posting this here because you guys are better at working at different levels of optimizing.  I tried to get some feedback on the GitP boards, but I got an awful lot of ignoring the guidelines. 

Thanks in advance!

[Operation Shoestring]

Knight's challenge is fun, and could synergize both mechanistically and flavor wise with some sort of fear inspiring ability.  Knights do get intimidate, no?  Imperious Command is worth a look, as is that feat that lets you ride spiders from the same book, Drow of the Underdark. 

Cometary Collision helps with the "covering other party members" theme (Counter Charge would be better, but you declined TOB)  There's also a feat that lets you apply your combat expertise bonus to allies, which also follows that theme.

If he doesn't like TOB, what about incarnum?  I can think of a few soulmelds or incarnum feats that could be helpful.  Azurin is just human with glowy blue eyes, after all.

[RobbyPants]

When you say knight, are you talking about the PHB2 class, or just the general concept of the armored S&B fighter type?  Because you mentioned replacing Mounted Combat with something else, I'm assuming the former.

As far as outfitting him goes, is the player fine with using a two-handed weapon and using an Animated Shield?  Looking at the WBL table, a level 7 character would be able to afford that with half of their gold.  Of course, knights don't get a lot of feats, but Power Attack with a two-hander goes a long way to increasing his offensive capabilities.  Do knights have Jump as a class skill (AFB right now)?  If so, that frees him up for Leap Attack, which can also help with his offense.

If he (or you) doesn't want to go this route, it can get tricky.  When someone rolls up a true S&B build, they often resort to TWF and Improved Shield Bash (ammong other feats) to try to keep up their offesnive capabilities.  Sadly, knights don't have a lot of feats, so it's going to be even harder to pull off an already-weak combat style.

I suppose if he has good luck with his knight's challenges, he might be able to suffice by just upping his defenses and drawing opponents to him.  What's the rest of the group look like?  I'd hate to see the player get disapointed by rolling up something really weak compared to everyone else.

[sonofzeal]

I DM'ed for a Knight character not too long ago.  The person didn't have the drive to master ToB just for that character, and I had no problem with them sticking with the Knight class.... but I gave them a couple "homebrew" feat options which were basically just Martial Study and Martial Stance taken out of context.  Shield Block and Iron Guard's Glare, specifically.  That way, he could gain some of the edge that ToB allows, without having to totally rewrite his character sheet..  And every time he got a new feat, I offered one or two new options.  Ended up working really well.

[sombrastewart]

Thanks for answering so quickly.  To make some responses:

Shoestring
-First of all, I don't know incarnum, so it won't be in my campaign.  I don't hold any particular grudge, I just don't particularly want to mess with it.
-I'll put Cometary Collision on the Knight's 'bonus feat' list, good call.
-I'll take a look at Imperious Command.  Thanks for the tip.

Robby
-Yeah, we're talking the PHB2 Knight class.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.
-The idea of drawing enemies to him is something that seems to appeal.  So far, the other party members are a Swordsage and a Daring Outlaw swash/rogue.  Him drawing enemies would work particularly well with the rogue, I think.

SoZ
-I'll look at offering those as possible bonus feat options.  It's a good idea, I hadn't considered it.

Thanks for the input

[jameswilliamogle]

Using Knight's Challenge with a trip-style build could be cool.  Reach weapon + Improved Trip + Combat Reflexes, etc.  Since they'd threaten a huge area, and that'd be difficult terrain, they could get multiple AoOs on creatures moving through it, halting them in their tracks (if I remember right, this is the main use of the Knight class).

[Operation Shoestring]

Hold the Line + Reach weapon + Evasive reflexes or Sidestep is an alternative to Cometary.  When enemies charge you move into/out of the way.

Robilar's gambit + Evasive reflexes/sidestep also breaks up full attack actions in melee. Mean, but nifty.

[woodenbandman]

BTW guys remember he's SWORD AND BOARD guy.

If he's okay with tripping, get him a kusari-gama or a swirling sword or whatever that was, and a Tower Shield (-2 is negated by the -4 that they take). Combine with basic lockdown elements, and you're gold.

[sombrastewart]

No, he's pretty well set on the sword and board setup.

[Sinfire Titan]

BTW guys remember he's SWORD AND BOARD guy.

If he's okay with tripping, get him a kusari-gama or a swirling sword or whatever that was, and a Tower Shield (-2 is negated by the -4 that they take). Combine with basic lockdown elements, and you're gold.

Spinning Sword, Secrets of Sarlona. 1d8, one-handed, 10ft reach, exotic. No Str to damage and isn't a tripping weapon, so Kusari-Gama is somewhat better, but you can PA with a Spinning Sword (IIRC).

[sombrastewart]

However, it would let him threaten a larger area with his Knight class features.

Hmmm, I need to read this book.

[Sinfire Titan]

However, it would let him threaten a larger area with his Knight class features.

Hmmm, I need to read this book.

Not much in it. That's one of the biggest things it has.

[jameswilliamogle]

Spinning Sword, Secrets of Sarlona. 1d8, one-handed, 10ft reach, exotic. No Str to damage and isn't a tripping weapon, so Kusari-Gama is somewhat better, but you can PA with a Spinning Sword (IIRC).

Wut?!  Thats awesome!

[Kuroimaken]

If the Knight theme you have in mind includes being a commander of men, consider taking a level or two of Marshal. Double cha to intimidate is always lots of fun.

[Operation Shoestring]

BTW guys remember he's SWORD AND BOARD guy.

If he's okay with tripping, get him a kusari-gama or a swirling sword or whatever that was, and a Tower Shield (-2 is negated by the -4 that they take). Combine with basic lockdown elements, and you're gold.

tripping isn't very gentlemanly though, if we talk flavor.   

I'm gonna second the marshal dip, which is worth three levels if the DM agrees that initiative checks are DEX checks.  CHA to init is useful for the whole party.

I again urge looking into feats that let him cover the party and/or take damage for allies... PHB2, Heroes of Battle and Miniatures handbook are all good sources for this.  If he wants to be the tank, by all means have him TANK.

[woodenbandman]

Initiative is by definition a DEX check, there's no agreement to agree about. Also, consider a few levels of Exotic Weapon Master, one for the double up on PA, one for tripping, and maybe a final for Flurry. If he never drops his sword, then just go for 1 or two.

[Kuroimaken]

Also consider having him take up Dreadful Wrath (from Player's Guide to Faerun, I believe). Intimidating presence every time he charges or full attacks is gold for a melee type.