http://brilliantgameologists.com
January 21, 2017, 04:40:14 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: These boards are now READ ONLY. We've started over! So don't try posting here. Go here www.minmaxboards.com
 
   Home   Help Search Members Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game  (Read 40731 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Meg
Message Board Extraordinaire
Brilliant Gameologist
Man in Gorilla Suit
*
Posts: 2069


Are you rapier than me?

NA
WWW Email
« on: January 09, 2009, 09:54:37 AM »

We've planned this episode but haven't recorded it yet but feel it's an important one.  The biggest struggle is how to not sound like complete asses with it.

Suggestions on how to not kick someone out?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 11:10:31 AM by Meg » Logged

All of my updates are on twitter! 

This is my angry voice.  Text written in red, by me, is  an official moderator "suggestion"

Want to meet me or the other Gameologists?  Check out where we'll be on the Conventions, Meetups and Events board!
Shoggoth
That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
****
Posts: 246



Email
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 01:57:23 PM »

I think you've touched on this in previous episodes, but the most important thing is to find out what the problem person is looking for out of the game.

That means using non-confrontational techniques, preferably one on one, to ask them questions about what they want from the game and what they can live with.  Don't tell them they're messing up, tell them it seems like they're either not enjoying the game or they aren't having fun, then ask them what kind of game they're looking for.  You can go from there.

Of course, if they are actually an actively agressively destructive player (sabotage the game on purpose for their own amusement), then you have to call them out on it.  I think if you are honest with them about the problem, try to work with them, and they continue to cause problems because they're actually a jerk, then you have one of the few times when kicking someone out is OK.  It's not likely to happen with friends, but if you run a game for people out of a store it can happen.
Logged

Still came that eldritch, mocking cry - "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!" and at last we remembered that the demoniac Shoggoths...had no voice save the imitated accents of their bygone masters.
emissary666
King Kong
****
Posts: 902



Email
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2009, 01:59:35 PM »

I've had to kick many people out. Apparently my "friends" enjoy ruining everyones fun. I need new friends.
Logged

I make little kids cry
Steady As A Goat
Warning: You may have already been set on fire

Bread does not need a reason
Wordman
Ring-Tailed Lemur
**
Posts: 70


WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2009, 04:12:44 PM »

« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 01:07:11 AM by Wordman » Logged

Ctrl ]
Robert Bohl
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
***
Posts: 182


WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2009, 06:42:46 PM »

Alternative: "I don't want to play with you" doesn't mean "kick someone out." It can mean you leave, it can mean you play a different game, and so on. I think as a culture, we have this notion that there is a single group of people, you signed up with them at one point, and you're stuck with them until the day you die.

I'd prefer the discussion to be "how do you deal with people who you think you don't want to game with" or something less verbose. Put all the options for coping with situations like this on the table.
Logged

Shoggoth
That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
****
Posts: 246



Email
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2009, 07:03:50 PM »

Alternative: "I don't want to play with you" doesn't mean "kick someone out." It can mean you leave, it can mean you play a different game, and so on. I think as a culture, we have this notion that there is a single group of people, you signed up with them at one point, and you're stuck with them until the day you die.

I'd prefer the discussion to be "how do you deal with people who you think you don't want to game with" or something less verbose. Put all the options for coping with situations like this on the table.

Some excellent points here.  There's some introspection involved in there - you have to figure out first if the problem is the other person, or it's just that you don't enjoy playing with the group you're in.

Unfortunately, for a lot of people they only HAVE one gaming group, so they're are stuck with them if they want to keep gaming, or at least that's their perception.  This topic dovetails really nicely into one of "How do you find other people to game with, particularly people who you will WANT to game with?"
Logged

Still came that eldritch, mocking cry - "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!" and at last we remembered that the demoniac Shoggoths...had no voice save the imitated accents of their bygone masters.
Chris_fromtheBX
Monkey bussiness
*
Posts: 11


Email
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2009, 12:56:41 AM »

An analysis of the distribution of players is needed. Who among the group of players around the table can be considered friends ? And who are just acquaintances only brought together by the shared hobby alone and nothing else ? What the issues of contention likely to cause the kicking out ?
Or are people who more likely to hang out with player x at the table and not player z ? For a long time I have gamed with people I considered friends and I simply did not game or feel comfortable gaming with strangers. And the consensus was the same for some around the table but not others. And clearly for me over the years there were players I fell out of touch with because they just showed up to game and they weren't there to become an active or inactive friend in my life.  People who want to do that will have an interest by way of their actions to make themselves proactive friends outside of the table.

 Now how that translates to kicking people out of the game well this is a seed for that larger issue. If you aren't friends and don't enjoy the company of the person in question in or out of the game then a decision like that becomes rapid fire. But I have also seen due to alliances that kicking a person out of a game by GM dictates or be it that the host was offended or what have you can promote bad blood and fracture a group like a rotted bone. All too easily it snaps under the slightest pressures. Why ? Because resentment was there from kicking the person out it left a bad taste in the players ' mouths who didn't speak about it or were passive about it. Or the person is associated with x amount of players at the table and kicking him out means he takes his boys with him effectively crippling the group size.

This brings me to consequences..do the consequences of kicking the person out outweigh the rewards and benefits. Because at the end of the day its a game that people come to enjoy and have fun at playing and participating in the creation of the shared event. Kicking someone out might end all of that and be more trouble that its worth.
Logged
Josh
Brilliant Gameologist
Grape ape
*
Posts: 1835



Email
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2009, 03:10:31 AM »

An analysis of the distribution of players is needed. Who among the group of players around the table can be considered friends ? And who are just acquaintances only brought together by the shared hobby alone and nothing else ? What the issues of contention likely to cause the kicking out ?
Actually no.  People you "hobby" with are friends and should be treated as such.

Calling people "acquaintances" is distancing talk so you feel better about treating them badly.  Acquaintances are people you are forced to be around, members of the PTA, the people in your bus group or the guy who gets his coffee at the same time you do.  If you have a book club, those people are your friends.

The difference is if they are interchangeable.  I don't care who else is in the PTA.  The other people could change every meeting, it would not matter.  People you invite into your home and you play games with are by definition your friends.  They may be terrible friends, but they are still friends.  If a friend steals from you or wrecks your house you will kick them out whether you game with them or not.  And by the same token only a dick kicks a guy out of his house because he does not like the way he plays a dwarf. 
Logged

Ennies Nominees - Best Podcast 2009
Pteryx
Ring-Tailed Lemur
**
Posts: 80



« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2009, 04:26:10 AM »

What if you try to talk out the problem... only for them to scream and holler and carry on and claim you're the only one being unreasonable for not handholding them through any story parts of a game and how dare you not make the whole world revolve around them instead of expecting their detective character, which they chose that angle for, to search for clues or employ basic logic such as "there is no reason for robbers to rob a vault they just emptied, and terror and mayhem are more easily spread by hitting targets whose security hasn't been heightened in response to the robbery they just committed than by hitting the same target twice" or just plain be proactive in any way whatsoever?

*deep breath*

Yeah, I've had someone like that.  Sometimes there really is such a thing as a lost cause.  -- Pteryx
Logged
Straw_Man
Hong Kong
****
Posts: 1145


aesheen@hotmail.com
Email
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2009, 04:29:15 AM »

An analysis of the distribution of players is needed. Who among the group of players around the table can be considered friends ? And who are just acquaintances only brought together by the shared hobby alone and nothing else ? What the issues of contention likely to cause the kicking out ?
Actually no.  People you "hobby" with are friends and should be treated as such.

No. I don't know where you game, but in my world you game with your GM's friends. This does not make them your friends. I've gamed with people I've never met with before and after several sessions wouldn't feel bad if they ignored me on the streets.
  
  I game with people who share my hobby because my friends are unavailable. Yes its tough, but the hobby is filled with enough social dysfunctionals that your not to keen to invite everyone home and hang out with.
Logged

"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."
Josh
Brilliant Gameologist
Grape ape
*
Posts: 1835



Email
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 04:36:32 AM »

An analysis of the distribution of players is needed. Who among the group of players around the table can be considered friends ? And who are just acquaintances only brought together by the shared hobby alone and nothing else ? What the issues of contention likely to cause the kicking out ?
Actually no.  People you "hobby" with are friends and should be treated as such.

No. I don't know where you game, but in my world you game with your GM's friends. This does not make them your friends. I've gamed with people I've never met with before and after several sessions wouldn't feel bad if they ignored me on the streets.
  
  I game with people who share my hobby because my friends are unavailable. Yes its tough, but the hobby is filled with enough social dysfunctionals that your not to keen to invite everyone home and hang out with.
The people you game with, the term you call them is "friends."

And, kicking people out is a GM centric concept.  If you are a player you don't have the power to kick people out.  And You may not be interested in the game, but the game is accepted as a whole or not.  You don't get to half choose to be in a game.
Logged

Ennies Nominees - Best Podcast 2009
Straw_Man
Hong Kong
****
Posts: 1145


aesheen@hotmail.com
Email
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 04:54:13 AM »

An analysis of the distribution of players is needed. Who among the group of players around the table can be considered friends ? And who are just acquaintances only brought together by the shared hobby alone and nothing else ? What the issues of contention likely to cause the kicking out ?
Actually no.  People you "hobby" with are friends and should be treated as such.

No. I don't know where you game, but in my world you game with your GM's friends. This does not make them your friends. I've gamed with people I've never met with before and after several sessions wouldn't feel bad if they ignored me on the streets.
  
  I game with people who share my hobby because my friends are unavailable. Yes its tough, but the hobby is filled with enough social dysfunctionals that your not to keen to invite everyone home and hang out with.
The people you game with, the term you call them is "friends."

And, kicking people out is a GM centric concept.  If you are a player you don't have the power to kick people out.  And You may not be interested in the game, but the game is accepted as a whole or not.  You don't get to half choose to be in a game.

  No thats your definition Josh, not mine. Don't force your crypto-fascist friendship-ism on me  But seriously, they are people I share my hobby with, I treat them as fellow hobbyists. I've come to find many friends in that group, but that grows out of trust, respect, like and time; not being present while theres a game running.

  And I'm often the GM. I've not renewed my invitation to game to certain individuals once a 'season' is over. Being a friend of a friend, or random person who's desperate to D&D gets you that much. After that its a measure of the 'fun' qoutient you bring. Harsh but fair, I've left games that my presence made less fun.

  Since that will be targeted, examples: bringing a LG character to a supposedly neutral party and realising that the players were basically interested in an evil party despite the GM's plans. Looked at that group, and decided since evil wasn't my mood at the time, I'll just drop out. A more complex example, some ppl I know, and some I don't, everytime I was there my play style was too serious for the group - I chased after wounded monsters, anticipated villains and followed clues; played smart basically - I found out later that that group had less fun. S'cool, I drop out.

  Mutual enjoyment is the goal of a game, but I've lost count of the amount of times we had to nurse ego's and hurt feelings. I'll do that for a friend, not some person I have no emotional investment in other than as a fellow human being, 
Logged

"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."
Zeke
Brilliant Gameologist
Bi-Curious George
*
Posts: 540



Email
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 08:47:31 AM »

"other than as a fellow human being" should be enough.
Logged
TheChrisWaits
Honorary Moderator
Curious George
*
Posts: 320



Email
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2009, 08:50:28 AM »

I've honestly gamed with people I could barely stand to be around. To call them my friend is horrible disservice to the word.
Logged
Robert Bohl
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
***
Posts: 182


WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2009, 08:54:02 AM »

I've gamed with people on a weekly basis I outright hated.
Logged

Chris_fromtheBX
Monkey bussiness
*
Posts: 11


Email
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2009, 11:46:37 PM »

An analysis of the distribution of players is needed. Who among the group of players around the table can be considered friends ? And who are just acquaintances only brought together by the shared hobby alone and nothing else ? What the issues of contention likely to cause the kicking out ?
Actually no.  People you "hobby" with are friends and should be treated as such.

Calling people "acquaintances" is distancing talk so you feel better about treating them badly.  Acquaintances are people you are forced to be around, members of the PTA, the people in your bus group or the guy who gets his coffee at the same time you do.  If you have a book club, those people are your friends.

The difference is if they are interchangeable.  I don't care who else is in the PTA.  The other people could change every meeting, it would not matter.  People you invite into your home and you play games with are by definition your friends.  They may be terrible friends, but they are still friends.  If a friend steals from you or wrecks your house you will kick them out whether you game with them or not.  And by the same token only a dick kicks a guy out of his house because he does not like the way he plays a dwarf. 

Exactly how I feel about that only a dick would kick friends out because he didn't play a character correctly and hence that's why my group broke up because I told a dick GM who did stuff like that to more than one person in my group (and he treated them like shit) repeatedly to go fuck himself and I left and so did everybody else and now we no longer game because of life, family( my new son and girlfriend deluxe package) and schedules and out of the rest of them I am the only one with a computer so no skype can be done. So except for the latest convention I  will be attending and running a game the sad reality is that my gaming days are really behind me unfortunately.

But yes I have gamed with people that were total ass bags my former GM in that description who cursed people out and acted like a tyrant at the table  or a player I  that gamed that tried to put moves on in the attempt sleep with two of the other guys wives that he called his friends) that I would never hang out with in other events. Or the guy I played with that got sentenced to Riker's Island for a time.

 Some of them in fairness would hang out with me we just operated in different social circles and this was the only one where we intersected. Our common interests were gaming and comics while we gamed but beyond that we could drift apart for months, years and not speak or call one another and then be called to game at a table and those of us that felt up to it would show up.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 12:00:29 AM by Chris_fromtheBX » Logged
Pteryx
Ring-Tailed Lemur
**
Posts: 80



« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2009, 12:13:01 AM »

Of course, on the other hand, though I see kicking people out of the game as a viable method of last resort -- and definitely not the kind of thing to recommend for every disagreement you ever see -- I've rarely had to actually kick someone.  Instead, people tend to loudly explode and storm out of my life completely if they're that kind of a problem player.

Keeping secrets from me as a GM?  Well, apparently it's such a big deal for me to have worked with what I'd been given when what I'd been given looked like creative license that it's worth torpedoing my game over.  Expecting me to lead the group down well-lit railroad tracks rather than expecting the detective wholly by player choice to actually seek clues and apply logic, and then not biting when I actually do drop a clue in their laps?  Apparently it's so terrible for me to not derail the villains into being Chaotic Stupid for their benefit and for me to say that I feel as though I'm being asked to treat them like idiots that it's more important for them to win an argument than solve the problem.  Insisting that being The Lancer means being impulsive, not acting as a foil, contrast, and brake on excesses, and not even allowing me to argue the point or he'll quit?  ...Yeah.  -- Pteryx
Logged
Josh
Brilliant Gameologist
Grape ape
*
Posts: 1835



Email
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2009, 02:12:00 AM »

Let me try a different tact.  Calling people things (friend enemy etc) is beside the point.  The only reason you say aquaintance is to create an emotional distance so you feel more justified when you are mean to them.

And there are times when you will ask people to leave.  BUT the reasons are the same no matter the activity.  If one of your scrapbooking friends slaps your wife, you kick them out.
Logged

Ennies Nominees - Best Podcast 2009
Straw_Man
Hong Kong
****
Posts: 1145


aesheen@hotmail.com
Email
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2009, 03:36:34 AM »


  Agreed on the latter. On the former, sometimes a acquaintance is a an acquaintance unless you mean you describe them as an acquaintance retroactively to justify kicking them out.
Logged

"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."
Cam_Banks
Curious George
****
Posts: 325


WWW Email
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2009, 06:25:19 AM »

I'm wondering where this comes from. Were you guys kicked out of a game? Have you just heard one too many stories of somebody who was? Are you tired of seeing the game being blamed for why somebody's kicked out? What?

Cheers,
Cam
Logged

Managing Editor & Community Manager | Margaret Weis Productions
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!