Changing direction mid-build: Battlefield Control Charger build (advice welcome)

[Brainpiercing]

So, I've updated the build using the suggestion of getting Thicket of Blades via Martial Stance:

Goliath Dungeoncrasher 2 using Large Glaive (possibly will be changed to Ranseur later)

Class Warbl 1 Warbl 2 Crus 1 Lion/wolf Totem Barb 1 Warbl 3 Monk (Overwhelm) 1 Monk (Overwhelm) 2 Warbl 4 Lion/wolf Totem Barb 2 Warblade 5 Warblade 6 Warblade 7 Warblade 8 Warblade 9 Warblade 10 Warblade 11 Warblade 12 Warblade 13

Lvl 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

ECL 4 4 4 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

IL 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 5 5(crus) 7 7 7 9 9

Maneuvers Steel Wind Mom.p. Mind Leading t. Attack Stonefoot Stance (St) Emeral Razor Martial Spirit (St) Battle Leader's Charge Foehammer Crusader's Strike Mountain Hammer Stone Vise Iron Heart Surge Leaping Dragon Stance Death from Above (swap L.t.At) Mithral tornado Elder Mountain H(sw Steel Wind) ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Feats PA, Imp. Bullrush, Knockback (from Lvls 1-3) Shock Trooper, (Ferocity ACF)(Pounce) Leap attack, (Unarmed Strike, Flurry) Combat Reflexes, Martial Study (Thicket of Blades), (Evasion) Stand Still, Improved Trip Imp. Initiative ?

I've still got a high priority on the damage dealing aspect. I could get far more BC by retraining Dungeoncrasher for Standstill or something like that, haven't checked Standstill for Fighter bonus possibility, but I could fiddle things around to make it fit much earlier. Without crashing I could also replace the Death from Above line of maneuvers with something offering more control. I'm considering doing this because crashing won't improve by much on the long run, and wasting one stance and a maneuver just to get a guaranteed crash might be far from optimal if I'm going to get more damage on a Full attack anyway. I might want to get some way to do an angled charge, I just can't remember how to do it.

So, any more suggestions on streamlining, or completing this build?

[Brainpiercing]

So I've decided to scrap Death from Above for Bounding Assault, which leaves my combo with Leaping Dragon sort of obsolete.

Now I don't know which stance I should replace that with. Pearl of Black doubt isn't really good for a Shocktrooper charger, since likely as not the starting AC will be really low. Roots of the Mountain is immobile, and as such has to compete with Thicket of Blades, which is my after-charge stance. Of course I could just take Pearl after all, and assume that noone will get close during the first turn after the charge, and then switch to Pearl after the AC reduction has worn off, if I find out that people can tumble through my threat range. I could also just have Pearl as an always-on stance, allowing me a good boost to AC in a suprise round against us - since my AC won't be that low, actually due to our iffy Shield spell items.

I've decided to swap Elder Mountan Hammer for Disrupting Blow, that seems like a sound BC measure against a foe that can dish out lots of damage, and maybe won't be killable in one round. Also, the Hammers are mainly for demolition, after a while, because even with the bonus damage a full-attack/pounce will do worlds more damage, even after DR.

I'm still unsatisfied with several things:
No White Raven Tactics. I just don't have enough maneuvers. Also, the only character I could apply this to, due to its short range, is the DMPC, and I don't want to push him. However, I guess I could arrange him to grant me a buff, like Enlarge Person, if he gets to go again just after me. Hmm, the largest problem is still what to swap out. I might just have to settle for a White Raven crown or something like that. [Edit]Actually I'm going to take that much earlier, like right now, I've just reached Lvl 7 (ECL8).[/edit]

[Edit]I bungled here, big time. [/edit] At Lvl 8 I can swap out Stone Bones for something more useful.

So I guess I would really like to take Eternal Blade or something like that, but unfortunately that will be require some negotiations to waive the Elf racial requirement.

[Brainpiercing]

Hmm, the character died by taking 120+ damage from two pouncing charges (in one round) at level 8. I had 73 hitpoints, and was 5000 behind WBL (as was everybody else). I guess I could have had a +2CON item to get me to 81HP, I still would have died. My AC was 22, and that's pretty good, IMHO, for a non-magical glass-cannon charger - at this point. I was house-ruled to not get AoOs for enemies that leave a sqare threatened by me when they charge - even though another house-rule gave me 15ft reach for carrying a large reach weapon. I could get a double-damage attack on the first attacker by virtue of house-ruled steadfast boots, gave him 70 damage, did not manage to knock him back due to poor rolling (a 28 check with a +24 mod). So both enemies got three iteratives and one gore on me, that was just too much. The iteratives were 3d6+10 alone.

Well, I have to think of something else unless my party members manage to resurrect me. Was thinking of a binder or an anima mage.

[PhaedrusXY]

Retarded houserules that favor the DMs pounce-happy NPCs, in a game with no BFC... That doesn't sound like too much fun...

How about going with an Illumian Dread Necro, with Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy)? You could take Split Ray, and throw out Split Rays of Exhaustion, Split Rays of Enfeeblement, etc. The first would prevent enemies from charging, even if they make their save. Surround yourself with disposable minions that block charging, also.

Add some other decent metamagic feat, and take the Illumian sigils that let you use it for free by burning Rebuke attempts.

Yeah, I know that's kind of from out of nowhere, but it would let you do a bit of BFC, give you some meat-shields, and you'd be fairly tough yourself.

[woodenbandman]

Don't forget chain spell. Half damage against CL# targets, combined with Scorching Ray, can easily equate to tons of damage. Just target 3 of the rays on 3 different guys, and everyone takes at least 1 1/2 damage. Even more fun combined with Enervation which has no save and deals no damage, so you lose absolutely nothing on the secondary targets. Have fun getting your character killed.

More(less) cheesy is Chained Moon Bolt for d4s of strength damage(maximize this, it's tasty), Bolts of Bedevilment(save at a +4 but it lasts CL rounds/level, so they'll eventually fail and get dazed. Plus it's a will save). Chained buffs are cool. Chained Magic Vestment, Chained GMW + Defending, but at that point, you might wanna go War Weaver. I'm sure there's some other things with no save that deal no damage, somewhat like the Entangling Ectoplasm. OH! Almost forgot: Reached Chained Shivering Touch!

[PhaedrusXY]

I specifically thought about suggesting Chain Spell for Chained Enervation, but I don't think you can apply it to a Ray can you?

[woodenbandman]

Yeah, you can, I think...

"Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained so as to affect that primary target normally, then arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20). Each arc affects one secondary target chosen by you, all of which must be within 30 feet of the primary target, and none of which can be affected more than once. You can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum.
If the chained spell deals damage, the secondary targets each take half as much damage as the primary target (rounded down) and can attempt Reflex saving throws for half damage (whether the spell allows the original target a save or not). For spells that don't deal damage, the save DCs against arcing effects are reduced by 4. For example, if a 10th-level wizard normally casts cause fear at DC 14, a chained cause fear could target a goblin chieftain at DC 14 and up to ten of his nearby guards at DC 10.
A chained spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level."

Emphasis mine. So yeah, you can. That's actually probably the whole point of the spell in the first place.

[Negative Zero]

The problem is that rays don't specify a single target. They don't have a target entry, they have an 'Effect: Ray' entry.

[PhaedrusXY]

Exactly.

[Brainpiercing]

DN would have to be good aligned (and how stupid is that?), and I'm playing one already. Also, in this game there are no corpses, everything disappears, it would be a pain getting minions. The problem is also not one of damage. I had plenty of damage, even more so now that our Bard rebuilt to a real WoC bard instead of an archer bard.

In defence of the DM he hadn't put in any pouncers before, he probably learned that from me. It gets stupid when you can't defend against them, though, and even guys without reach can charge right through reach weapons. He said that the move from charging can't provoke, because otherwise the feat Hold the Line would be useless. Well... if I'm resurrected in some way I could retrain dungeoncrashing for that feat, except it's not a fighter bonus feat, IIRC.
What I never get in my groups is retarded players always siding with the DM when things like that are discussed.

What I was thinking of now are, as I said before, a Binder, either going Anima Mage or KotSS, secondarily an aberration flavoured druid, which MAY get cheesy, especially since the DM would even let me get an Aberration companion in that case.

I guess I could also do something really cheesy and do an RKV, except that might not work yet, at that level, and no Divine Power would suck, IMHO. Don't know if I could push the cheese with DMM, well, I'm reluctant.

[woodenbandman]

Ray entry under combat:

"All ray attacks require the attacker to make a successful ranged touch attack against the target. Rays have varying ranges, which are simple maximums. A ray’s attack roll never takes a range penalty. Even if a ray hits, it usually allows the target to make a saving throw (Fortitude or Will). Rays never allow a Reflex saving throw, but if a character’s Dexterity bonus to AC is high, it might be hard to hit her with the ray in the first place. "

There is no "Target" entry, but the definition of ray is that it effects one target, ergo it specifies a single target.

[PhaedrusXY]

There is no "Target" entry, but the definition of ray is that it effects one target, ergo it specifies a single target.

Well, if we're going to nitpick the wording:

Any spell that specifies a single target and...

Ray spells don't specify a target. The fact that the definition of a Ray does is irrelevant.

I agree that an argument can be made either way, but I think the RAW more strongly agrees with not allowing it. RAI, maybe it should be allowed, but that's more of a personal opinion thing.

[woodenbandman]

Well, the spell creates an effect that specifies a single target, ergo the spell effects that target. Or are you saying that a web spell doesn't actually effect anything, but the effect of a web being created does?

[Brainpiercing]

Well, the spell creates an effect that specifies a single target, ergo the spell effects that target. Or are you saying that a web spell doesn't actually effect anything, but the effect of a web being created does?

Metamagic is pretty precise about what it allows and what it doesn't, and usually requires the proper spell description entries. I would say if you habitually go with the literal interpretation when you want to do something cheesy (or just slightly better than "RAI"), then you also have to go with it here. If you use common sense, usually, then I guess it's fine to chain rays.

[Brainpiercing]

I'd like to give another update on the wiles and woes of the BC charger: My DM still hates me, in the sense that none of the interesting mechanics I've tried to build the character around work. The only thing I can do is dish out damage, by now fairly large amounts if our Bard cares to use WoC and the Wizard hastes.

The  problems I've identified with the build: Initiative and raw defensive power, i.e. AC and HP. I've just zoomed through ECL 9, in just 6 encounters I think, and all of those were identical, boring, single opponent encounters which were usually over in one round or two, some kind of sandworms that use a breathweapon, grappled and then exploded once we killed them. Against this kind of encounter, all you need in terms of BC is initiative, and in that respect this character really doesn't shine. I still have a +1 to init, due to being quite behind WBL this also isn't going to change - much. Granted, our Bard took a Marshall level for the initiative aura, but it's only 30ft.
When I win initiative, basically everything I attack first dies. When I lose init, there goes charging, and there go most useful possibilities of controlling the battle - against the usually single big enemy this is pretty pointless anyway.

Are there any affordable items I could use to boost my initiative? The Warning weapon enchantment, sure, anything else?