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Author Topic: Sode 28: Overdone Payouts  (Read 8502 times)
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Meg
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« on: November 08, 2008, 11:17:34 PM »

Part 2 of the Payouts and Overdone Payouts episode.
This episode is also part of the Jargon Series: Terms, Words, and Concepts to Game by

This episode deals with overdone payouts- what happens when a player takes a payout too far and ruins the game for the rest of the PC's?

The answer to our first trivia question is in this episode and put up your guesses for Trivia Question #2!

This episode is being released on or about Tuesday November 25 as there is no episode next week in celebration of Turkey Day.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 03:53:40 PM by Meg » Logged

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jimmersault
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2008, 06:18:56 PM »

I misunderstood the last episode description, I was under the impression that PLAYER payouts were to be discussed, not PC payouts. What are WE getting out of the game. I realize there are different answers, but understanding this is key for my understaing of tailoring my game to the players in the group. Sometimes a good reveal is a better money shot than the battle.

James
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Actual table rule, we had to get Zeke to stop interfering [mock humping] with the person trying to take their turn.

jimmersault: Zeke is my new hero.
Meg
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2008, 07:57:19 PM »

Episode 27 covers all kinds of payouts-- the biggest two being 1) Character payouts and 2) Player payouts.  Then there are also Visceral payouts, academic payouts... lots of good stuff. 

This episode covers mostly PC/Player overdone payouts but tries to address why something may happen and what you could do about it.
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2008, 03:44:00 AM »

A few ideas here.

The Uberizer - The Optimizer taken to the extreme, the player/character that puts together abilities that have potential to simply wreck the game while still being totally within the rules of the game.  This is basically the low-level TO stuff/high-level CO stuff like the Hulking Hurler, Shapeshift abusing Gishes, and Nova Psions (particularly if they have the capacity to Nova repeatedly).  Basically the character is so great that he out-shines the rest of the group and the DM will have trouble throwing encounters at the group as a whole that can challenge the Uberizer without utterly destroying the rest of the group.

More specifically, this guy takes the payout of being awesome in the game and makes himself the most awesome PC at the table such that the rest of the party can't also enjoy that feeling.

The GM Slayer - The player that is out to win the game at all costs.  Closely related to the Uberizer, the GM Slayer has no qualms about questionable rules or simply doing things that the game really wasn't designed to handle.  The GM Slayer plays the high-end TO builds like Dweomercheaters and Pun-Pun.

This guy takes the payout of going incredible things or intellectually warping the game world to the extreme, and just plain breaks the game.  Occasionally, though they may also be motivated by an out-of-character payout of wrecking the game for the sake of getting back at the GM or other players.

The Masturbater - Since you guys somewhat missed sex as a visceral payout this time around, you can make it up with this.  The guy that just wants to artificially inject sex into the game at every opportunity because he doesn't really want to roleplay fighting dragons and looting hordes, he wants to roleplay having sex with every woman he can.

Granted, actual "Masturbaters" are probably few and far between.  That said, you can apply this to other things like gambling in-character or pursuing a mundane profession in-character.  Then again, you guys seem to feel that you should talk about sex more in your podcast, so there's the Masturbater.
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Talen Lee
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2008, 05:57:45 AM »

Quote
The Masturbater - Since you guys somewhat missed sex as a visceral payout this time around, you can make it up with this.
I'd suggest you don't. You know why? Because without a good, solid basis on how to do this well, if you cover it instead by talking about how to do it badly, you're just going to continue the idea that Sex Is Bad. Which is stupid, especially when you're talking about players who hump at one another as a matter of comical course.
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2008, 06:17:40 AM »

Quote
The Masturbater - Since you guys somewhat missed sex as a visceral payout this time around, you can make it up with this.
I'd suggest you don't. You know why? Because without a good, solid basis on how to do this well, if you cover it instead by talking about how to do it badly, you're just going to continue the idea that Sex Is Bad. Which is stupid, especially when you're talking about players who hump at one another as a matter of comical course.
There was another 'sode about how to do it right, though.
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Meg
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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2008, 01:41:14 PM »

The episode is up!
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 11:03:04 PM »

You guys got very silly near the end. Eeet was funny.

I like this episode, this is basically a list of bad player archetypes... but it's not the typical list. Oh, we've got the old favorites here, the power-gamer and the munchkin, but this is the list of people who you WOULD let sit down to game, and only later realize that their fun damages your fun.

I especially liked your advice on how to deal with people who want these payouts. All the advice I've seen on the topic involves the heavy beating stick. "No!" you're supposed to say, "Bad player!" and smack their hands when they try to do what they want.

While I find it dangerous to generalize, very few people are willing to acknowledge that they fall into one of these archetypes. The trick is to get them to realize that what they want is damaging, when taken to the extreme that they are taking it, without beating them over the head with it... and beating them over the head with it is the last thing you want to do.

Get a player on the defensive, or worse, into a state of reactance, and you have a, very nearly, unsolvable issue.
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Meg
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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 11:39:37 PM »

Yes we got silly- I think this may have been some of my silliest yet. 

I still want to be the Moose.

I really like this way of looking at these "bad" players because it identifies what is damaging in a way that is very impersonal so it won't offend someone.  For the most part.  It's not "you little bitch!" it's - "I see you really like to overcome challenges.  But when you do it to this extreme, here's what happens..."

I got an amazing email from a listener that I'm going to repost about the subject because it's far too well thought out for my eyes only.
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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2008, 04:23:27 AM »

Nice episode, particularly the dont jail your players advice.

Meow.
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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2008, 12:20:27 PM »

Overall an excellent episode.  I really liked the treatment of the different types of problem behavior and how to deal with it constructively.

In fact, everything about the episode was great except the explanation of GNS.  As I kind of expected, you guys got it wrong.  You were doing so well at explaining what it is NOT (a gamer version of Meyers-Briggs, a coherent theory of everything, etc.) that I was saddened when you got to the explanation of what it actually IS. You messed up Gamism, touched ever so briefly on Narrativism, and claimed (erroneously) that Simulationism is too complicated to sum up in a few words.

Ah well.
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Meg
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« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2008, 12:34:28 PM »

Help fill in the holes then!  Let's make this thread errata on the issue.
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anomalousman
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« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2008, 09:42:36 PM »

This show and the last probably contained some of the more usable ideas for actually improving my game.  I liked it when you gave good examples for redirecting evil energies for good.

I doubt whether you'd be up for it, but I'd like to hear recordings of good D&D sessions.  While I agree with a good fraction of your abstractions, I think there's nothing like a good game to give you ideas for good games.
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2008, 08:24:11 AM »

An actual-play cast of our sessions would mostly consist of me complaining about the behavior of Meg's dogs.
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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2008, 09:13:19 AM »

I doubt whether you'd be up for it, but I'd like to hear recordings of good D&D sessions. 
I really, really think you don't understand what you say when you ask this.

A good D&D section involves a lot of unspeakable communication. It's comfort with one another, it's the GM being on a roll, it's things like speech and poise and elegance and challenge meeting challenger and a whole range of things that to outsiders just sounds like 'I plornk him.' 'Plornked.' 'Right, turn.' and 'Po-Kay-Mon' and Zeke singing. It's something that doesn't translate universally, nor does it even translate as well as you might hope.

Analysing a corpse is useful, dropping a corpse on your front step, less so.
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 10:31:02 AM »

Hearing Meg's story about grinding up cookies in milk brought me back to my younger years...

I used to do the same thing, except instead of milk I did it with hot chocolate. I would microwave myself some hot chocolate, which was made with milk, then put 4 cookies in the mug, smash it all in there with a straw and drink it down.

Diabetes-tastic is right....


I think part of the reason players end up seeking these overdone payouts is because those are the types of payouts video games tend to provide. Most of the group of friends I pull tabletop gamers from also play video games and when they walk into a game, they expect the same type of experience granted by video games. If you're used to power-grind-fucking your way through 80 levels of WoW, sitting down to be part of an imaginative story where your character has a series of personality quirks and flaws that should somehow be internally rewarding would be quite a jarring experience.  Twitch
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anomalousman
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 06:40:53 PM »

I doubt whether you'd be up for it, but I'd like to hear recordings of good D&D sessions. 
I really, really think you don't understand what you say when you ask this.

I do understand, and it's not really a request so much as an idea for consideration.  I've listened to several good recordings of sessions - I tend to have them playing while I clean up the house.  I have to say that it was valuable from my point of view, even though the signal to noise (game versus chat) was predictably low.

That said, I totally understand that many games wouldn't translate.  Also, the fun value might drop in the presence of a microphone.  In which case, no worries, discard the idea without a second thought.  But given that the BG group are sufficiently extroverted to put themselves out there in a podcast, I could imagine the possibility of them not being inhibited in that way.

Damn dogs.
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2008, 06:31:46 PM »

Okay, I can't believe I'm about to go delving into Mr. Rogers Lore, but...

Wasn't it Henrietta (the cat who had the treehouse next to the owl) that kept obsessively using the word "meow" in conversation?  I don't seem to remember the tiger cub doing it so much.  I could be wrong.

I think one of the most horrifying realizations I had as a kid was that Fred Rogers was crouching behind the wall (or inside the tree, as the case may be) doing all of the voices.  I may still be scarred by it.  Not sure.  I don't think I want to delve that deeply into my own psyche.  I probably wouldn't make it back out.

And, incidentally, Zeke, just so you won't feel alone: I'm with you on the Sara Rue issue.  Most unfortunate.  (sigh)
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2008, 07:41:00 PM »

you're correct about Henrietta, we were riffing on a general Mr. Rogers theme.
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otherdoc
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2008, 10:13:25 PM »

you're correct about Henrietta, we were riffing on a general Mr. Rogers theme.

Ah, okay.  (Should I be concerned that I remembered that detail?)  Smile

I was busy running around trying to get ready for work this morning when I was listening to the end of the episode so I must have missed the transition.  (So now as punishment I will go back and listen to it over and over again until I can recite it PERFECTLY!!!  Gaaah!)

And now that I've finally thought of something to mention that's slightly relevant to the actual subject matter of the podcast...  (sheepish grin...)

While I've most definitely had my share of dealing with those who follow the path of the munchkin or the power gamer, there was one point during this episode when I was reminded of something that may be akin to the overboard role players who try to essentially commandeer the game through sheer force of personality (to the detriment of the other players): players who espouse the notion that if you can role play having something it doesn't matter whether or not you actually have it on your character sheet.  For example, they use their Charisma/Presence/Talk-to-People skills as dump stats and yet have somehow decided that their characters are Casanova or are able to sell ice to Eskimos.  I'm all for the role playing aspect of things, but it can most definitely go too far.

I seem to run into these bozos in LARPs more often than in tabletop, but I've seen them in both.

This is probably akin to the player who creates an Amish fisherman who suddenly shows an aptitude for using computers (because, strangely enough, the player is a computer programmer).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 03:56:33 PM by otherdoc » Logged

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