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Author Topic: Sode 27: Payouts  (Read 7264 times)
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Talen Lee
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2008, 10:53:43 PM »

See, now I can't point out that you're being a dick without being an asshole. And if I don't respond, I'm a pussy. So, rather than engage in linguistic hermaphroditism I could just sit and wonder to myself how strange and unique a snowflake I am, to be the only person who finds that style of humour unfunny. Well, the only person I can speak for.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I thought you sang badly and did tuneless little riffs, knowing you weren't good, and thinking it was funny. Knowing you are good and are doing it deliberately doesn't actually change the end result: I don't like it, and don't think it's funny. On the other hand, other people do, and all that jazz so flow like a river sweet charlotte and don't never you mind what the moon has to say.

(On the other hand, it might be that I don't like this import 'humor' stuff and prefer to lean on locally produced 'humour.')
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MilwaukeeJoe
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« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2008, 08:26:32 AM »

I don't think just saying the word penis and sperm count is explicit, personally.

Yeah, that's pretty tame. I thought I remembered previous episodes being a bit more explicit with the intro clip. But, it's moot because as you said, there are other warnings as well.
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Zeke
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« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2008, 09:05:37 AM »

Honestly I was just trying to be funny. It's what I do, but if the joke didn't work, that's my fault not yours.
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Josh
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« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2008, 02:25:35 PM »

Some people like songs, some don't but based on feedback lots of people like the songs.

As for the last episode. Zekes trivia song was technically perfect.  When he kept having to redo it for technical reasons I was holding my breath that he wouldn't change anything.

Not every person is going to like every element of a show.
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Meg
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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2008, 03:40:00 PM »

Also- just FYI- I found the music for Zeke's trivia song after he sang it.  He wasn't trying to match the tune because there was no tune for him. 

I also believe I have a list of outtakes of he and Josh singing other things that rhyme with "week".  It was hilarious.
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« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2008, 04:01:23 PM »

Criticism can fall into two broad categories. The technical, where there is a right and a wrong. That's where stuff like the the file size of the podcast, the structure of an anecdote, or the process you use to explain something fall. I criticize this a fair bit, I hope.

The other aspect is the personal, where things become judgement calls based on personal opinion. Now, I don't like Zeke's music. As Josh - rightly! - points out, there's a body of people who like the songs and so far as I know, I'm the only person that doesn't. Even if a majority of the listeners note they dislike the songs, Zeke likes them and that can be enough of a reason to do it. Personality-driven podcast and all. I mainly pipe up with stuff like this to make sure that my opinion on these personal matters is heard. I doubt many people praise the essentia of certain phrases, but I do that, too.

Basically I'm an opinionated asshole.

Now, that being said, it's rare to be on a site where you can call the person with moderator pants (or a way to easily get into the moderator pants) a dick and have him take it like an adult. Good show, guys.
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AlienFromBeyond
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« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2008, 06:12:35 PM »

Did I really hear the words "greatest game ever made" not in relation to Pandemic?

I'm putting you folks on my On Notice board. You have been warned!
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Fox Lee
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« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2008, 07:38:36 PM »

[GAAAH essay post O_O; This is way longer than I had intended. Just bear with me! ^^;]

Without falling into the "I'm just here to backup the guy who's givin' me some sugar" trap, I do agree with Talen on the singing. Sorry Zeke. Which reminds me, from back in the first episode I listened to - you guys all got the Pokémon theme wrong*, and you pronounced it wrong too Angry

That aside, I really enjoyed this one, which suckily translates to "lack of useful feedback". I did want to hear more talk about sex as a character payoff, rather than a player payoff - the jokes were good fun, but they meant tyou neglected to talk about exactly how much of a motivator sex is for... well, most people, in some way or another. I've gotten into a lot of arguments with people regarding what is and isn't gratuitous when it comes to in-character romance, but for me it comes down to this.
  • People like sex. Most people want to have sex with somebody/thing or other, most of the time. It's not usually their primary concern, but it is at least secondary concern for just about anyone.
  • If you're okay with a character wrestling a dragon, swimming up a waterfall, balancing on air, or coming back from the dead, why is it getting some that strains your suspension of disbelief?
Of course, this doesn't mean that I want to foist sex upon the people in my group who aren't comfortable with it. But when somebody else wants to schmooze it up IC, you get to sit back and be polite about it, just like they do when you're going after your personal payoff.

(I suspect somebody will tell me this was covered in the "Sex in Gaming" episode, and it probably was. Sorry if I'm doubling back, I haven't listened to that one in a while, and I don't have it one hand.)

I loved the Douchebag of the week section this time around. We had a serial Novelist in our group, who never once completed a game because the players always got sick of not being able to have any solid impact on the plotline. She also, without fail, would throw in a GMPC with crippling emotional issues who flew off the handle every few sessions and needed to be stroked and coddled for an hour or two before we could move on with the plot. This character was, of course, absolutely central to the plot - much moreso than any of the PCs. The first time, I tolerated it because my character was a dirty old woman who was trying to score with the victim. By the next game, I had learned my lesson.

At the risk of carrying on about this one person, this GM also had the worst grip on player/character payoffs that I've ever encountered. In one game, I was playing a Healer (I know... sorry u.u;) apothecary who was a strong antitheist, who actively hated the god of the setting (one of your schizophrenic omni-deities; the pantheon were all aspects of the one god). I had spoken to her on numerous occasions about how excited I was that my charater would soon get his unicorn companion - the main reason I wanted the Healer is because it gives you a unicorn regardless of gender (hooray for ignoring senseless patriarchal bullshit!) - and how I envisoned the unicorn as a sort of spiritual guide and guardian for my character, a mentor much like the archetypical "wise old wizard" (a bit Dumbledore, a bit Gandalf... just not an arse. You know the type). I really wanted this - every other level was just a stepping stone to unicorn city.

My unicorn was a bimbo religious apologist. He had a wisdom of like 26, but was still somehow dumber than a brick and twice as oblivious, and utterly unhelpful. She barely bothered to play him, except when he would whine passive-aggressively at my character to make him feel guilty about hating god.

The worst case was when one of our players had written a backstory for his chivalrous thief character, who had become a sort of pacifist (subdual damage, trips and disarms, etc.) after the accidental death of a woman he'd had a playful rivalry with (kids, don't fence on rooftops). We all understood why he'd crafted his story this way; the guy was a hopeless romantic shaped by a terrible event in his past. That's a pretty easy archetype, surely? But this GM proceeded to bring the woman back, saying she'd never really been killed in the first place (despite that the character had visited her grave regularly)... and turn her into the whiny self-insert NPC of choice. And an irredeemable bitch. *bashheadontable*

At this stage, we don't play with this GM anymore - our styles are incompatible, to say the least - though we do keep encouraging her to work on her damned novels XP

Talen, on the other hand, is a great GM (I know I'm his wife, but fuck off - he is!). For example, he knows I love the "recruiting" aspect of console RPGs such as the Suikoden series, so when I took Leadership, he gave me the opportunity to develop relationships with NPCs during the storyline, who would move into my fortress and help run the place (rather than just having faceless mooks accrue at my stronghold because the feat says so). We have two mechatronic engineers in our group; Talen set up a plot which involved investigating the layout and construction of a particular building, letting one character in particular utilise his heavily-invested Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) skill to gain various clues about what was going on. In one of your more "magepunk" games, our geeky inventor character was able to repair a tank we commandeered from an enemy group, and convert a Sunblade into a device that was basically a laser - in turn, she became renowned in the setting's canon for inventing such devices. Two of us played dedicated weapon/armoursmiths in our first game, and in games set hundreds of years later, we ran into items crafted by those characters which had become prized for their exceptional quality.

Writing this, it occurs to me that "payoffs" is pretty much synonymous with "fanservice". Anime had it right all along Tongue

Myself, I'm trying to be what I would think of as a "Director" GM. I do indeed strive to have an "epic plotline", but the whole point is that I want it to be almost entirely character-driven - I require plot hooks as part of character creation. I've organised my plot seeds by the characters they relate to, and noted all the ways I can imagine them turning out so I have at least a vague idea of how to adapt them to suit the players. A number of my NPCs are designed to be good guys by default, but have "negative" versions I can switch to if it seems that the players want them to be antagonists.

Time will tell whether or not I do a good job - this is my first game I'm currently running - but observing other GMs, particularly the success of Talen's games compared to the Novelist GM's games, made me realise very quickly how important payoffs are.

Indeed, that was one of the key factors in what I chose to run - it's using the Bleach anime/manga setting. We have one particular player in our group who is tricky to please - he likes to keep his character fairly aloof and/or stoic, doesn't like being in the spotlight, and isn't very comfortable with teh drama - but when he got to make his signature weapon, choose its awesome fanboy-fodder name, and finally reveal its true form for the first time (complete with acting out how his character posed and spoke), "payoff" was written all over his face. As a GM, seeing him in that moment was tremendously rewarding ^_^



(*It's "you teach me and I'll teach you". But I'm sure somebody else pointed that out back when it was relevant.)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 07:49:04 PM by Fox Lee » Logged

Talen Lee
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« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2008, 07:43:53 PM »

At the risk of polishing Fox's knob in public, I would laud her ability to give players their payoff in a short time*. She's been listening to other GMs and generally a scholar of Gamelogy who has finally gotten around to bringing that knowledge to bear. I'd like to think the podcast (and my own advice) has been useful to her, and if it is the case, it really shows in this excellent game she's running. So remember, the podcast is useful.

* That's not to say "You all meet in a bar. AND GET PONIES!" kinda thing. She doesn't need it explained to her. Unlike every other GM I've dealt with, she didn't need to get up to speed before she was into the idea of giving players stuff they liked, and she's given us small payoffs leading into bigger payoffs.
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Meg
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« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2008, 07:50:33 PM »

Fox- great info all around.  I love the examples- it makes us realize we are actually connecting and aren't just making shit up... all the time anyway.

For the Pokemon song- I realized after we got the words wrong, but the mispronunciation was entirely on purpose.  We get a kick out of saying "pokeman"- sort of making fun of adults who don't know what it is.  Like the Daily Show where the anchor interviewed the elderly who claimed the Rotundo was as bad as the Nintendo.

As for the sex bit- we honestly completely forgot about it.  Shocker, I know.  It wasn't until an unrelated issue made me think of it where we even brought it up at all.  But that was just an aside and not real commentary.  I declare your points as official errata for this episode.

So sex as a payout?  What she said Wink
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Talen Lee
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« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2008, 07:55:05 PM »

ADDITIONAL: If someone in your group makes a diviner, and you run a mystery campaign, let the divination spells work. That's probably why they made a diviner!

Oh, hi Meg.
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Fox Lee
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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2008, 08:52:51 PM »

Fox- great info all around.  I love the examples- it makes us realize we are actually connecting and aren't just making shit up... all the time anyway.
Well, I'm glad it was beneficial rather than just rambly Tongue Talen probably has a good point, in that one of the reasons I wanted to talk about it was to demonstrate that the podcast works. I'm certainly getting value out of it, even when it just prompts me to think back over stuff I already know. It's always good to be reminded why you think what you think.

Quote
For the Pokemon song- I realized after we got the words wrong, but the mispronunciation was entirely on purpose.  We get a kick out of saying "pokeman"- sort of making fun of adults who don't know what it is.  Like the Daily Show where the anchor interviewed the elderly who claimed the Rotundo was as bad as the Nintendo.
I did catch the comedy (as I'm familiar with "let me show you my pokeymans!"), but I guess I felt it was a bit overused. You've gotta say it right once to prove that you can, then you can make fun of it Tongue </opinion>

Quote
As for the sex bit- we honestly completely forgot about it.  Shocker, I know.  It wasn't until an unrelated issue made me think of it where we even brought it up at all.  But that was just an aside and not real commentary.  I declare your points as official errata for this episode.

So sex as a payout?  What she said Wink
Hey, sweet - I'm official errata! Big Grin That means we need to start a thread arguing about whether or not I was right, doesn't it?

I should add... shit, I forgot what I wanted to add *reads back over posts* Oh! Yes! Speaking specifically about D&D (though it can be adapted to any other setting with a modicum of customisation, I'm sure) skills and feats are a huge "tell" when it comes to working out what your players' payoffs are. Skills are particularly good, because a lot of them are so bloody irrelevant. If somebody gives their characters ranks in Craft (Cooking), you pretty well know that's important to them, because why the hell else would they waste skill points there?

Which actually brings me to an example for the character Talen talked about earlier. While the GM dropped the ball in a number of cases, he did note that Talen's character had bothered to buy up his cooking skill, as well as Talen's own interest in cooking and elaborate description of exotic foods in his own game. Thus we wound up in a side-quest staged by a wealthy planar gadabout known as Adamantine Chef, where we had to hunt down our theme ingredient (cloud ray) and battle the opposing team for secondary ingredients. To his credit, the GM he also indulged Talen's character's ego/showmanship by accepting his audacious challenge to all three Adamantine Chefs at once Tongue

Quote from: Talen Lee
ADDITIONAL: If someone in your group makes a diviner, let the divination spells work. That's probably why they made a diviner!
Fixed ;p
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Zeke
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2008, 10:10:39 PM »

The pokeman thing was an example of us having known each other too long. That is how we pronounce the word now pretty much all the time. It started as a joke and is now just a thing. Sometimes it's hard for us to step back and  look at ourselves from a distance.
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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2008, 11:05:28 PM »

I'm only about... oh, we'll say 3/5 of the way through the episode just now but I just wanted to mention one thing before I forget.

The way I've heard most folks pronounce MMORPG is "More Pig!" (as in calling for a second helping of swine).  This being, methinks, from the folks who are using "multiplayer" as one word and "role playing" as two (whereas I'm guessing MMPORG would be the reverse, "multi player" and "roleplaying").  I myself use the former as I am amused by the idea that those of us who play them think of ourselves as Vikings sitting at a massive dinner table.  ("Fetch forth another slab of pork, wench, I needs make level 50 by midnight!")  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2008, 11:31:45 PM »

My crew and the people I game with pronounce it "more-porg", but I much prefer Yahtzee's version of "Muh-Mor-Puh-Gah!"

Quote
ADDITIONAL: If someone in your group makes a diviner, and you run a mystery campaign, let the divination spells work. That's probably why they made a diviner!

This reminds me of a Douchebag of the Week who has not YET been given due credit...

=======================================================
The SHTICK Breaker
=======================================================

This fun and friendly beast is the type of GM who, despite firmly insisting that ALL kinds of characters are welcome, goes out of their way to minimilize or destroy the shtick of every character in the game.

You use fire magic? Eeeeeveryone is immune to fire.
You maximize criticals? Oh, they're undead too.
You are a deadly ninja at litigation? And they never enter a court house.
You could convince a god to part with their testicles simply by asking nicely? It doesn't work ('But I rolled a twenty bajillion!'), it REALLY doesn't work. Then they sit on you.

Every time a player tries to do something cool they are shut down, and shut down hard.

Extra points goes to this douchebag when this applies to everything EXCEPT their -favourite- shtick. If the one thing that THEY think is cool is exempt from their schtick-smashing, then they are upgraded from regular everyday douchebag to =ULTRA DOUCHEBAG=: a being so powerful it is capable of crushing lesser doughebags under it's splinter clad heels.

=======================================================
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Darth Krzysztof
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« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2008, 08:40:27 AM »

Should have mentioned earlier, I like Yahtzee's pronunciation of MMORPG: "muh-MORE-puh-GUH."

Also, the archetypal Serial Novelist tried to kill us all back in the 80s, spending the first HOUR of the first session describing every battle of a war that we, as 1st level villager yokels far from the front lines, had NOTHING to do with. This is also the DM who took control of my paladin and had him charge back into the village once the ARMY of orcs invaded, forcing the rest of the group to spend the remainder of the session rescuing him while I got to do -nothing.-
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Fox Lee
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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2008, 05:23:13 PM »

This is also the DM who took control of my paladin and had him charge back into the village once the ARMY of orcs invaded, forcing the rest of the group to spend the remainder of the session rescuing him while I got to do -nothing.-
Yyyyeeeesh! O_O; At least ours never directly took our characters away from us. She just guilted and manipulated and wheedled and threw sulk tantrums when we tried to ruin her storyline.
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Prak, the Mad
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« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2008, 09:13:35 PM »

"I am so angry I grew another point"
Eleven Testicles (Monstrous)
You have so many testicles you're willing to actually dip your natural weapons in molten adamantine/silver/meteoric steel/Baatorian Green Steel/stone/whatever, just so they can be enchanted.
Prerequisites: One or more natural weapons. You can even be a Humanoid who possesses natural weapons, like a monk if you so wish.
Benefit: All of your natural weapons can be coated in the special material of your choice. They gain the usual benefits, and needn't all be the same type.
BAB:
+1 The process was so painful that you proved just how hardcore you are. You gain a +4 bonus on saving throws against pain and fear effects, and a +2 bonus to your Command rating. You may turn these into magical weapons the usual way.

+6 If you successfully strike a foe with all of your natural weapons, you gain one rend attack, automatically dealing damage according to your primary natural weapon plus double your Strength modifier.

+11 Having sprouted even more testicles, you are brave/stupid enough to have a new natural weapon grafted into your flesh, or mutilating your existing limbs into natural weapons. You may gain a gore, claw or bite attack, also treated by a special material. If you already possess one gore per head, one bite per mouth and one claw per limb, gain some other natural weapon that your DM agrees to.

+16 Confused??

just what that made me think of... and another reason why people prefer me to dm over my friends who actually like to dm... I guess... I got this novelist shit out of my system a long time ago...
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