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Author Topic: Factotum Challenge.  (Read 9250 times)
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #160 on: November 09, 2008, 05:35:38 PM »

Okay, at bowens plug I'll be a shugenga.

... can someone spare me 8 pages of reading and tell me why I'm building a shugenja?
Or should I start building right now?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 05:40:45 PM by Midnight_v » Logged

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Ubernoob
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« Reply #161 on: November 09, 2008, 05:46:36 PM »

Okay, at bowens plug I'll be a shugenga.

... can someone spare me 8 pages of reading and tell me why I'm building a shugenja?
Or should I start building right now?
Anyways, we're still looking for a shugenja player.  Here's a basic layout of spells and shit:
0-All four water, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand
1-Obscuring Mist, Bless, silent image, shield of faith
2-Lesser restoration, glitterdust

Order-Order of the Spring Zephyr

Buy SF:Knowledge(Religion) via Complete scoundrel, head into divine oracle next level.  Feats are pretty open, so who knows.

That's as much as I've got without actually running it.  Can we PLEASE get a shugenja player?  Your character is half way built already.
This is what I've already hardcoded for you so no need to sweat for your spells.  Levl 5 32 PB and you PrC into Divine Oracle and later dip contemplative.  Feats are fairly open and I trust you'll get some good ones for your stats.
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #162 on: November 09, 2008, 06:58:32 PM »

I am not pleased with this class....  Mad


Okay what is my party role supposed to be here? I could go a lot of way with this what with all the Prc dips and the such.
All in all the class leave me feeling uninspired... *sigh*
So yeah...should I be building a "master of the save or die" or a "God-styled controller"?
I was tempted for a second to try to make "Sugenja-zilla" like they do with favored souls.. but seriously what do you guys want as an example to show tier 3.
I mean I could get turning from sacred exorcist and start persisting righteous might soon.
Make something useful is vague. Talk to me.
M_v
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 07:02:32 PM by Midnight_v » Logged

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« Reply #163 on: November 09, 2008, 07:51:23 PM »

- Cunning Breach does last for one round.

- Turning is standard fare. But of course Cha is not a Factotum's priority.

- Cunning Insight wasn't mentioned... because everybody knows it's there, and it's part of the basic Factotum ability, i.e. get Int to whatever ?

- I'm surprised you like BoB so much given that you look down on skills... and it's mostly for physical skills at that. (Don't get me wrong: I love it ! I don't think it's the best ability either - it's tied.)
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Kaelik
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« Reply #164 on: November 09, 2008, 09:31:00 PM »

Wait a minute? Cunning Breach lasts for one round? The sneak attack one? No wonder people kept trying to tell me the Factotum SA was worth something. Not much, but at least it's not total shit with that.

Oh, and for the Shu:

Save-or-suck die type, with some control thrown in, and the occasional utility. That's why all real Shus are Water, because Fire is balls and Water has all the utility. Domains for extra spells is odd, because they don't necessarily fit in any specific element. So, interesting. But also I guess you could build a zilla maybe?
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JaronK
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« Reply #165 on: November 09, 2008, 10:09:42 PM »

Have we addressed this?

Of course.  Frank is wrong. 

First of all, if he'd actually bothered to read this thread instead of rushing to judgement, or had bothered to read the appropriate information he'd notice that I took the Warbeast template specifically because the template gives the costs to purchase the creature (100gp+75gp per HD).  So, that's where the hell I got the price.  Note that I advanced it only enough to make it large, so that I could ride it.

Second of all, Hunting Bats are not war trained already.  War trained creatures are those trained to be ridden into battle... nothing in the Hunting Bat entry even suggests this is.  Thus, they are valid candidates to be war trained.

Third, the weight of the Factotum in question is not too high for the Hunting Bat, which is large, and thus the Factotum can ride it.  I made an entry for the bat already, with links, and you can check that there (remember, a flier can only carry a light load).  The bat can easily carry the rider.  The bat has a light load limit of over 600 pounds (see here:  http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89745 ).

Fourth, I don't need handle animal ranks, as I purchased the bat pre-trained (I would have trained it myself, but there is no listed price for a Hunting Bat without the Warbeast template, and all Warbeasts are automatically trained in basic combat usage).  You don't need Handle Animal ranks to use a Warhorse either... only to retrain them.  And my Ride skill is easily sufficient for the purpose.  That said, I threw in a rank.

All his points are completely and totally wrong, and he has no idea what he's talking about.  And doesn't Frank always say that debating something somewhere else where the people involved can't respond instead of where the debate is actually occuring is stupid, and that anyone doing it is an idiot?  He should take his own damn advice, and either come here where I can actually answer his concerns directly or stay out.

JaronK
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 11:01:01 PM by JaronK » Logged

JaronK
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« Reply #166 on: November 09, 2008, 10:19:33 PM »

OK, so I just downloaded dungeonscape to check a few things.
1) Factotum casting is even more worthless than I'd originally thought:
A) You have to pay the XP costs and need the components.  This means for instance that major creation for black lotus requires you to actually have black lotus on hand.

Uber... you still evidently don't know the class.  Factotums can't even cast spells with Xp costs.  Furthermore, EVERY TIME I've mentioned that you need to create a dose of the poison to work off of if using Minor Creation, because yes, you do need material costs.  You do not, however, need a full dose (it says just a little bit of the substance) so one dose should last you a good long time. 

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B) It's not gish progression (delayed a couple levels).  It's bard progression.  You literally don't get cloudkill until level 13 and get no other level 5 spells if you do that.  The majority of your spells are actually two levels behind sorcerer casting.  That blows chunks.

I've never said otherwise.  You mean you've been talking about this the whole time and didn't know how their casting worked?  You've seriously been arguing this whole time without even knowing that?

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2) The sneak attack is badly worded.  It implies it only applies to that attack and not the whole round.

...yes.  Of course.

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3) The healing/turn undead is a fucking joke.

No, it's really not, especially since you can use a Lyre of the Restful Soul and Rod of Defiance.  The healing is useful enough, especially since you can do it without using up actions (due to Cunning Surge).  And of course you can UMD wands of Lesser Vigor better than a Rogue.

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4) Cunning breach doesn't apply to your allies and doesn't last for the whole round, so is a joke.

It works for you, which means a Factotum's Shivering Touch is unstoppable to a dragon. 

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What we've been overlooking:
1) Cunning Brilliance is fucking amazing, but doesn't come into play until level 19 so really isn't worth discussing.

What YOU'VE been overlooking.  I've said it the whole time.

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2) Cunning surge blows without FoI, but is pretty nice with it.  Definitely the cutoff point for the class.  There is no reason to ever go past level 8 in factotum.

It's a clear breakpoint, but there's plenty more useful things to do past that point.

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3) Brains over Brawn is the best ability in the entire class.  Hands down this ability is amazing.  Why JaronK hasn't been citing it as a central ability just completely awes me.

There's a whole thread on the subject that I started.  I've also cited it numerous times as one of the reasons Factotums are such better skillmonkeys.  I thought you'd actually read the class though, so I didn't think I had to mention it that much.

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4) Cunning insight for a competence bonus = int on a save for one IP is fucking hawt.  Second best ability in the entire class.  Why JaronK hasn't been citing this as a central ability in the class just fucking awes me.

Because it's obvious and everyone knows about it?  I was operating under the assumption that you'd read the class and simply hadn't figured out what was strong about it... not that you'd never seen it.  Brains over Brawn is obviously incredible.  Cunning Insight is obvious too.  Citing Cunning Insight for the saves or Brains over Brawn as why Factotums are powerful would be like citing creating undead as a reason Dread Necromancers are powerful... you don't have to because everyone already knows about that.

Uber... you hadn't even read the damn class this whole time?  That's absolutely pathetic.  You've been arguing entirely from ignorance this whole darn time!  No wonder you were so completely off base.

Kaelik:  Cunning breach is the ignore SR/ignore DR ability.  Cunning strike (the sneak attack ability) is for one attack, and thus only comes up for ambushes and situations where you need just a little more damage right now to finish it, or for using sneak attack trigger abilities like the one that raises the DC of poisons.

JaronK
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Kaelik
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« Reply #167 on: November 09, 2008, 11:31:50 PM »

for using sneak attack trigger abilities like the one that raises the DC of poisons.

Fair enough here, but I don't own DotU so I could not be expected to think of that.

But as for needing a little extra damage, how on earth would you know that before the damage roll? And it would have to be a very little amount (or you would have to be before level 8 I guess).

I mean, mathematically, Cunning Surge destroys Cunning Strike for IP-damage.

3d6 SA averages to 10.5. If your base attack does less then that you are in trouble. Ignoring your build for a moment and assuming we have a Factotum with no IF (since if he has that, he'll always average more then 10.5 a strike, at least when the target is denied Dex AKA when SA is involved) a basic attack with a +1 Longsword two handed and a Str of 14 is 1d8+4 damage, or 8.5, and that's something close to the worst melee combatant ever at level 8+. And even he could spend 4IP and instead of 14 extra damage get 8.5+Int, which at level 8 could easily be +6/+7 damage.

Honestly, I feel like the SA part of the factotum is useless (yes, if you have a not very good feat from a book that came out months later it might be useful sometimes.) And they should have a real class feature at that level instead.
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JaronK
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« Reply #168 on: November 10, 2008, 01:06:50 AM »

Fair enough here, but I don't own DotU so I could not be expected to think of that.

It's a very good book for poison use, fear, and feinting.  All in all, a very underrated book.  I highly recommend it actually, along with Tome of Magic (but only use the first third!) and Tome of Battle.

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But as for needing a little extra damage, how on earth would you know that before the damage roll? And it would have to be a very little amount (or you would have to be before level 8 I guess).

I mean, mathematically, Cunning Surge destroys Cunning Strike for IP-damage.

Yes, there's a reason I haven't talked much about Cunning Strike... it rarely comes up.  I could see using it to make darn sure a Coup De Gras stuck, but I noticed the same thing you have here... Cunning Surge will usually do the same thing better.  Maybe if you play with Death from Massive Damage it could matter?   Also, if you want to be very aggressive but have only 2 IP left, that might be useful (to finish off the target, as mentioned earlier).

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Honestly, I feel like the SA part of the factotum is useless (yes, if you have a not very good feat from a book that came out months later it might be useful sometimes.) And they should have a real class feature at that level instead.

I don't want to say it's useless, but I agree it's not a very useful ability.  If for some reason you absolutely must make one attack kill the target, it might be good... bypassing DR before level 11, perhaps?  But yeah... it's very situational.  I can think up a few situations where it's good to have it (the afformentioned DotU feat with poison, Coup De Gras, etc) but I don't think it's an ability you'd want to use very often, especially when Cunning Surge seems to be far better.  It does let you qualify for feats and PrCs that require sneak attack though, so that might be handy... Craven, for example. 

JaronK
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 01:08:28 AM by JaronK » Logged

Kaelik
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« Reply #169 on: November 10, 2008, 01:56:37 AM »

I don't want to say it's useless, but I agree it's not a very useful ability.  If for some reason you absolutely must make one attack kill the target, it might be good... bypassing DR before level 11, perhaps?  But yeah... it's very situational.  I can think up a few situations where it's good to have it (the afformentioned DotU feat with poison, Coup De Gras, etc) but I don't think it's an ability you'd want to use very often, especially when Cunning Surge seems to be far better.  It does let you qualify for feats and PrCs that require sneak attack though, so that might be handy... Craven, for example.

I don't know about Craven, but I'm pretty sure that it won't qualify them for 99% of SA related things, since they all specify a specific SA not the ability to do said damage, which is different.
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Kaelik
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« Reply #170 on: November 10, 2008, 02:06:50 AM »

Cross posted from the Den:
Quote from: ubernoob
Quote from: JaronK
Uber... you still evidently don't know the class.  Factotums can't even cast spells with Xp costs.  Furthermore, EVERY TIME I've mentioned that you need to create a dose of the poison to work off of if using Minor Creation, because yes, you do need material costs.  You do not, however, need a full dose (it says just a little bit of the substance) so one dose should last you a good long time.
This means your DM has to actually let you buy that shit.  That's incredibly limiting in play due to WBL and actually fucking finding the stuff.
Quote from: JaronK
I've never said otherwise.  You mean you've been talking about this the whole time and didn't know how their casting worked?  You've seriously been arguing this whole time without even knowing that?
My brother had a hardcopy, so I had access to the book up until school started.  I read the class, made my analysis, and put it away.  As it turns out, my memory was bad in favor of the factotum casting actually being MORE powerful.  If I had thought it was more powerful than it is and still discounted it as worthless then how useful is it now?
Quote from: JaronK
It works for you, which means a Factotum's Shivering Touch is unstoppable to a dragon. 
Scintillating scales.  Nobody fucking cares about SR.  They care about real defenses that aren't negated by a fourth level spell.
Quote from: JaronK
What YOU'VE been overlooking.  I've said it the whole time.
I agree with you for once and this is how you react?
Quote from: JaronK
It's a clear breakpoint, but there's plenty more useful things to do past that point.
Not until level 19.
Quote from: JaronK
There's a whole thread on the subject that I started.  I've also cited it numerous times as one of the reasons Factotums are such better skillmonkeys.  I thought you'd actually read the class though, so I didn't think I had to mention it that much.
You still don't get it, do you?  Adding a second stat to str and dex checks (not skill checks, because those don't matter) is fucking amazing.  Factotums make incredibly good tripmonkies, grapplers, bullrushers, tripsages, and a variety of other all the time abilities.  The fact that you can't see how incredibly useful this is fucking astounds me with all your fapping for the class.
Quote from: JaronK
Because it's obvious and everyone knows about it?  I was operating under the assumption that you'd read the class and simply hadn't figured out what was strong about it... not that you'd never seen it.  Brains over Brawn is obviously incredible.  Cunning Insight is obvious too.  Citing Cunning Insight for the saves or Brains over Brawn as why Factotums are powerful would be like citing creating undead as a reason Dread Necromancers are powerful... you don't have to because everyone already knows about that.

Uber... you hadn't even read the damn class this whole time?  That's absolutely pathetic.  You've been arguing entirely from ignorance this whole darn time!  No wonder you were so completely off base.
No.  I've been arguing with the faulty memory that factotum casting was actually better than it is and the assumption that you'd eventually figure out how kick ass Brains over Brawn is and raise the point so I could actually respect your analysis.

Stop jumping to conclusions and start analyzing like I did months ago when I wasn't even making Tiers.


It's mostly standard Uber stuff, but a) he's right, you have not even once addressed the trip aspect of Factotums in anything other then a single offhand mention of a Tripsage you were making. b) As the previous victim of your annoying superiority complex, I'm going to have to side with Uber that you should stop with your, "You were wrong about something? All your opinions no longer matter!" crap.

Sorry, not everyone has a huge hard-on for Factotums. I'm sure if we discussed Wizard spells for hours you eventually prove supremely ignorant of something I thought everyone knew. But I'm not going to talk shit about it.

Some people spend all their free time making Factotums and Shadowcraft Mages, other people make crazy prepared Wizards with Incantatrix levels or 12 PrCs (when Incant is banned for being the shit.)
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JaronK
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« Reply #171 on: November 10, 2008, 02:22:16 AM »

I don't know about Craven, but I'm pretty sure that it won't qualify them for 99% of SA related things, since they all specify a specific SA not the ability to do said damage, which is different.

Yeah, well, it says you have to have sneak attack as a class ability... which you do.  You just don't have a class ability called "sneak attack" but rather a class ability that lets you sneak attack... the wording is tricky.  That said, I agree overall that Cunning Strike is rather weak.

And of course, Uber is being silly again.  Yes, I assume the DM lets you purchase the supplies to create your own poison... it's mundane gear and doesn't even cost all that much, plus you can easily make any knowledge check or gather information check to know where to find it (and if you find it where Black Lotuses actually grow, it's only 450gp). 

Likewise, we've got these wonderful assumptions that every dragon always has Scintillating Scales up, even when he's surprised (since Factotums are GREAT at sneaking up on them), and even though most dragons have VERY limited casting.  Heck, a Red Dragon can't even cast Scinilating Scales until he's a Mature Adult (CR 18).  Why are we assuming no dragons are fought before that point?  The Factotum has been able to cast Shivering Touch and Spectral Hand in the same round since level 8... meanwhile, an adult red dragon has an SR of 24, which at the level Factotums start being able to use Spectral Hand is VERY significant.  The fact that they hit 11 and can suddenly bypass that SR 24 is important indeed, yet Uber decides that doesn't matter because "Nobody fucking cares about SR."  Why?  The Mature Adult (the first one that can even cast Scintillating Scales) has a SR of 26, and Uber is likes to say that the only real challenges are CRs at least 4 higher than the party, so he's assuming level 14s fighting the CR 18 Mature Adult.  Do you really think an SR of 26 is something no level 14 cares about?  That's going to kill off half his spells!

And he's assuming I didn't know Factotums could be good trippers and all that... I thought that was a given.  And you know darn well I specifically mentioned how Swordsage was a great dip because you could use the trip manuevers (which can be dex based) along with Brains over Brawn to get Dex+Int to trip.  Do you really want me to go find the quote of me doing that a while back, or do you remember it?

The fact is, Uber is ranting about all the really basic stuff that I thought was already painfully clear to everyone.  I thought he didn't get what was strong about the class because he didn't know the advanced stuff, so that's what I focused on.  Yes, getting Int to saves whenever you need it is awesome.  Yes, Int to all strength checks means you can trip shockingly well (and you can cast Enlarge Person).  Yes, the ability to gain virtually any Ex ability from any base class is incredible and yes, it's only incredible if you actually play that high level.  If he presents himself as knowing about the class, I think it was reasonable of me to assume he knew such stuff already and was just missing some of the finer points.

Look, obviously I've got a short fuse with the guy.  He picked a fight with me, is an intentional and proud asshole and troll (his words!), and likes to go off about how smart he is while making tons of newbie mistakes.  So yeah, when he screws up, I point out why, and not as nicely as I would with someone who was acting like a decent person.  I know I should be nicer or something about it but I've been pushed far enough.

JaronK
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Kaelik
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« Reply #172 on: November 10, 2008, 03:05:46 AM »

Yeah, well, it says you have to have sneak attack as a class ability... which you do.  You just don't have a class ability called "sneak attack" but rather a class ability that lets you sneak attack... the wording is tricky.  That said, I agree overall that Cunning Strike is rather weak.

No. If you don't have the ability "Sneak Attack" you don't have it. Factotum's can't take Craven, and neither can Ninjas or anyone else but Rogues and Spellthieves.

Heck, a Red Dragon can't even cast Scinilating Scales until he's a Mature Adult (CR 18).  Why are we assuming no dragons are fought before that point?  The Factotum has been able to cast Shivering Touch and Spectral Hand in the same round since level 8... meanwhile, an adult red dragon has an SR of 24, which at the level Factotums start being able to use Spectral Hand is VERY significant.  The fact that they hit 11 and can suddenly bypass that SR 24 is important indeed, yet Uber decides that doesn't matter because "Nobody fucking cares about SR."  Why?  The Mature Adult (the first one that can even cast Scintillating Scales) has a SR of 26, and Uber is likes to say that the only real challenges are CRs at least 4 higher than the party, so he's assuming level 14s fighting the CR 18 Mature Adult.  Do you really think an SR of 26 is something no level 14 cares about?  That's going to kill off half his spells!

Typical, JaronK style. You pick the worst casting progression Dragon as your only example to prove your point, ignoring all the ones that can cast Scintillating Scales, like the Adult Black CR 11. Not to mention typical JaronK assuming that every DM is just going to say, sure bring in a fucking Shivering touch. No problem. Not like that renders all Dragons except White obsolete at level 5. Let me guess? Factotums are allowed to cast every broken spell in existence but as soon as anyone even says the word Wizard suddenly Tier 1! Not comparable!

Just accept that not everyone gets to cast Shivering Touch, and that if you do, a Black Dragon casting Scintillating Scales is right around the corner, along with a White Dragon using a Hat of disguise.

And finally: SR 26 negating half a level 14 character's spells? Really? That's a joke right? See what I said about astounding ignorance. And no, this isn't just the evil Tier 1 Wizards, it's also the Sorcerers/Beguilers/Dread Necros/Wu-Jens/Clerics/Druids/ect.

And you know darn well I specifically mentioned how Swordsage was a great dip because you could use the trip manuevers (which can be dex based) along with Brains over Brawn to get Dex+Int to trip.  Do you really want me to go find the quote of me doing that a while back, or do you remember it?

It's almost like that is exactly what I was referring to in my post or something. The fact is you didn't mention it in this thread, in the WotC thread, or in the original 18 page train wreck here on BG.

Look, obviously I've got a short fuse with the guy.  He picked a fight with me, is an intentional and proud asshole and troll (his words!), and likes to go off about how smart he is while making tons of newbie mistakes.  So yeah, when he screws up, I point out why, and not as nicely as I would with someone who was acting like a decent person.  I know I should be nicer or something about it but I've been pushed far enough.

I'm sorry, who is all this preaching aimed at? Do you see anyone insisting that you should be nicer to Uber?
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AfterCrescent
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« Reply #173 on: November 10, 2008, 04:22:36 AM »

If you want to try this challenge, go for it.

Open a new thread, keep the bullshit out of it, recruit 4 players and playtest. Haven fun doing it, too.

But this trash ends here.
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