Factotum Challenge.

[Straw_Man]

Well, if the DM says no, I'll remove it.  I'd have done so already if I though Kae would be happy with just that, but if he wants me to completely change every feat until the Factotum becomes suitably weak (and considering his shots against every feat I took, even if some were roundabout), I think that might simply not help.  I get the funny feeling that once Item Familiar goes, Craft Wonderous Item will have to go next, and I can't replace them with Fonts, and eventually what I'll get is whatever Kae thought was weak enough that he gets to claim victory.  But what's the point?

JaronK

  Why not try it and see. The majority of posters here seem to have issues with Item Familiar only, thus far I've only seen a single poster take objection at CWI.

[Omen of Peace]

Nope, I mean Major, and I didn't mean the Shadow version.  Spell Like Abilities are always Standard Actions unless otherwise noted, so all Factotum spells are standard actions.

Oops, my bad. For some reason I thought the Factotum ability had a clause that said the durations were as the spell.
It seems my brainspace is too limited : when I re-learn one part of D&D I forget another !

Still, Minor Creation would serve you just as well.

Even with a few changes I suspect your Factotum will be more rather than less optimized than its competitors, so...

[JaronK]

Oops, my bad. For some reason I thought the Factotum ability had a clause that said the durations were as the spell.
It seems my brainspace is too limited : when I re-learn one part of D&D I forget another !

Still, Minor Creation would serve you just as well.

Even with a few changes I suspect your Factotum will be more rather than less optimized than its competitors, so...

Well, I guess we should just see what everyone comes out with, and I'll adjust up or down on the optimization depending on what they use... though honestly, I'm still up in the air about doing this in the first place, considering some of what's going on.  But again, I wasn't planning to do the Major or Minor creation stunts... sure, they're instant kills for whole encounters, but then I'd be accused of being too cheesy.  After all, Factotums can't do anything impressive with their actions that other people can't do, or it's cheese.

These sorts of challenges are always hard, because you're expected to lose, and if you win, you can't win by too much or it's cheesy.  So you have to win by a very little amount, or else it doesn't count.

Still, if Tshern says no to the familiar, I can drop it... but if that doesn't satisfy Kaelik, what more do I have to do?

JaronK

[Dictum Mortuum]

I'm against item familiar, as it is ridiculously good, solely for the +xp thing. However craft wondrous item is not all that bad.
Kaelik, he is not going to be more optimized because of some wealth more. I mean - what, he loses gloves of dexterity and the hunting bat? Maybe some more? Blindfold, too? Big deal. The black lotus extract trick was mentioned earlier, which a factotum can pull off naked.

Hey, just wanted to say --

omg people! give up already. Play the game for fun, stop trying to prove stuff that are not even important. I mean, who cares if factotum is tier 3 or 1 or whatever

I hope that after 5 pages of flames (or ~3 to be more accurate) you are still having fun.

[JaronK]

Losing the Item Familiar, by the way, would just mean losing Blurstrike and Eager off the weapon, saving nearly 10kgp... the +1 would be dropped, but the weapon is Adamantine anyway.  And of course that money would go right back into a ring of +10 Iajuitsu Focus.  Losing Craft Wonderous Item at that point would actually have very little effect, probably just droping the +1 and Warning off the armour spikes (another 8kgp down), and perhaps dropping some of the bonus on a few items.

So, lowered initiative (but it's still very high), slightly lower stats, and not much else, but it would free up two feats.  It's not actually doing THAT much, other than making the character the way I want it.

If I were actually trying to optimize like crazy, I'd be using Greater Manyshot with Cunning Surge or something, possibly with Master of Poisons to make good use of Minor Creation for 10 hours of any poison from a single dose (which is not nearly as abusive as using Major Creation to dump literally thousands of doses on an entire encounter at long range).  Vaporize encounters left right and center, on anyone not poison immune (and if they are immune, they're often undead... why hello thar, opportunistic piety!).  There's a materials cost of 1 dose per day, but I can craft it which reduces the cost significantly.

So yeah, I consider this to just be a well rounded flexible Factotum, not anything over the top.  But again, I can lose the Item Familiar if the DM says as much... and I don't have to turn into archer of death.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

If I were actually trying to optimize like crazy, I'd be using Greater Manyshot with Cunning Surge or something,

You don't actually have enough feats to make that a viable build decision.  Perhaps you should just buy a bunch of least martial maneuver items instead to use the standard actions?

[Tshern]

On the issue of using Major creation:

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell

Emphasis mine.

[Kaelik]

Tshern, can we just get a ruling for Item Familiar/Flaws?

I know you want to stay out of making the rules, but JaronK has said several times that he will never take it off unless you say to.

And then can you please tell him that we are playing a level 5 game.

I just need a ruling on Item Familiar/Flaws to build my characters, and then decide which one I want to play.

[Tshern]

I am allowing the Item familiar and flaws alike. Sure, they are good for Factotums, but as ubernoob elaborated, they are useful, sometimes even moreso, for all characters.

[JaronK]

On the issue of using Major creation:

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell

Emphasis mine.

Whoa, that's changed from the PHB then.  Interesting.

And yes, Ubernoob, I could have gone with Greater Manyshot (and even had room for two Fonts and Master of Poisons, with flaws).  Though honestly, because I don't depend on precision damage, Manyshot alone would have been enough.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

On the issue of using Major creation:

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell

Emphasis mine.

Whoa, that's changed from the PHB then.  Interesting.

And yes, Ubernoob, I could have gone with Greater Manyshot (and even had room for two Fonts and Master of Poisons, with flaws).  Though honestly, because I don't depend on precision damage, Manyshot alone would have been enough.

JaronK

Manyshot is DAMN feat intensive for a factotum.  Bad for this exercise.

[Tshern]

I once had to check that for Iron Siege purposes and I was very surprised to see that as well, that's why I figured quoting it here might be in order so we'll avoid the possible misunderstandings.

[JaronK]

Good to know... Wraithstrike for me!

Oh, and Tshern... here's an interesting one for you.  To get a Hunting Bat big enough to ride, it had to be advanced by 1 HD, making it Large at 5HD.  Then I War Trained it, which made it 6HD.

So, it's gained two HD and a feat.  Where should the two skill points go, and what feat should it be?  I can chose (putting the points into skills he already has of course, and picking any feat) or you can... it's your call.

Also, if you decide to change your mind on the Item Familiar, I do understand.  I'll go by your ruling either way.  Obviously, for the campaign I designed the character for I prefer it.

@Uber:  It's three feats to get regular Manyshot, which is enough to do the job.  This challenge now has flaws, so I've got 5 feats to work with by level 5!  It's hardly a strain.

JaronK

[Tshern]

You pick the feat and invest the skills to ones he already has. And Item familiar can stay, it is not especially incredible for Factotums the way Runestaffs are for Sorcerers...

[Ubernoob]

@Uber:  It's three feats to get regular Manyshot, which is enough to do the job.  This challenge now has flaws, so I've got 5 feats to work with by level 5!  It's hardly a strain.

JaronK

Have you ever taken an entry level economics class?

[JaronK]

Yes Uber, I have.  Which is not in fact relevant here.  Spending 3/5 of one of my resources to be quite strong is not a bad thing, nor is it a significant strain.

And Tshern, here's the mount:  http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89745

I put the two extra points in Hide, mostly to help make up for the -5 to hide he got from changing size, and the bonus feat went into Improved Flight.  I assume that's reasonable.  He does still have Weapon Finesse despite that being useless for a large bat, but it's a standard feat that all Hunting Bats get.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Yes Uber, I have.  Which is not in fact relevant here.  Spending 3/5 of one of my resources to be quite strong is not a bad thing, nor is it a significant strain.

I'll just assume your perceptions limit you more than mine then.  No point debating with the close minded.

[Omen of Peace]

On the issue of using Major creation:

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell

Emphasis mine.

Or maybe that's where I got the rule from.

OoP, soooo confused at times...

edit: ubernoob, you can cut the sniping.

[Kaelik]

JaronK, I think you might need to make that mount sheet public.

And do you have a level 5 sheet yet?

[JaronK]

Working on level 5.

JaronK