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Author Topic: Sode #26: Gender Roles and Playing What You Ain't  (Read 9279 times)
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logan9a
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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2008, 02:35:29 AM »

I'm sure that somewhere out there is someone able to play the opposite gender.

Somewhere.

But, in about 30 years of tabletop gaming (with both genders) I have utterly failed to encounter that person.

So, I made a simple rule - girls playing guys get to wear a fake mustache to the table.  Boys playing a girl get to have plenty of padding in their shirts.  I have failed to have anyone take me up on this and everyone stuck to their own gender - and the roleplaying has been just fine.
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jimmersault
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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2008, 11:07:56 AM »

... River's not a stereotype?! O.o

What? How? Honestly?
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Actual table rule, we had to get Zeke to stop interfering [mock humping] with the person trying to take their turn.

jimmersault: Zeke is my new hero.
Talen Lee
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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2008, 03:17:35 PM »

She's the .5 of Joss Whedon's 2.5 character archtypes.

1. Smirking smartass
2. Colossal badass
2.5 Wavers wildly between 1 and 2.

I might just be reading different books but I've seen heaps of Rivers, the wilting violet with an acid tongue who just HAPPENS to bust out at the last minute and kick huge amounts of ass. She's equal parts Secret Keeper and +1 Guy.
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jimmersault
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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2008, 06:14:02 PM »

She's the .5 of Joss Whedon's 2.5 character archtypes.

1. Smirking smartass
2. Colossal badass
2.5 Wavers wildly between 1 and 2.

I might just be reading different books but I've seen heaps of Rivers, the wilting violet with an acid tongue who just HAPPENS to bust out at the last minute and kick huge amounts of ass. She's equal parts Secret Keeper and +1 Guy.
Am I a complete moron for not seeing this as an archetype? I'm not a Whedon disciple, but even if he crutches on repeating characters, I would say that makes them an archetype per se. I think that this is an individualistic character that has much more to her than all of your examples combined. Kaylee defies the list alone, but that is beside the point.

More to the point is the late 20th/early 21st century PC script of all women having magical powers that defy physics. Not every chick is Gina Carano and it's pretty depressing that they are now writing roles for male and jamming a set of mammaries into the opposite stereotype. To lend credence to you, though, RPGs have better crossovers than TV has for a decade now.

James

If only more women were Gina Carano...
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Actual table rule, we had to get Zeke to stop interfering [mock humping] with the person trying to take their turn.

jimmersault: Zeke is my new hero.
Talen Lee
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« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2008, 07:35:41 PM »

You know, if every story written from today onwards takes every various male archetype and 'jams mammaries on it', it'll still be over a hundred years before women finally rival men for diversity.

I think you'll find that very, very few men are Bruce Willis, yet we see thousands upon thousands upon thousands of stories about them.
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jimmersault
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« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2008, 11:01:26 AM »

You know, if every story written from today onwards takes every various male archetype and 'jams mammaries on it', it'll still be over a hundred years before women finally rival men for diversity.

I think you'll find that very, very few men are Bruce Willis, yet we see thousands upon thousands upon thousands of stories about them.

no argument there
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Actual table rule, we had to get Zeke to stop interfering [mock humping] with the person trying to take their turn.

jimmersault: Zeke is my new hero.
flannel
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« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2008, 04:26:40 PM »

I think its safe to say I'm against it... if you're a guy, don't play a girl.  If you're a girl, its less of a problem, but still don't play a guy.  If the character is THAT complex that it has to be a particular gender?  Then select something simpler to play, and be flexible.  Not every character is RP-gold, and very few are necessary.
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. . .. ... .....
*wink*
Talen Lee
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« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2008, 05:45:01 PM »

you seem to exist in a very, very tiny world.
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bhu
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« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2008, 05:20:47 AM »

Something  I just thought of.  If playing an exotic race PICK A LANGUAGE THE REST OF THE PARTY SPEAKS!!!!

Roleplaying an exotic race sucks major bad if you can't communicate with the other players in any meaningful way. 
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Callix
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« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2008, 05:37:10 AM »

Something  I just thought of.  If playing an exotic race PICK A LANGUAGE THE REST OF THE PARTY SPEAKS!!!!

Roleplaying an exotic race sucks major bad if you can't communicate with the other players in any meaningful way. 
Yeah, there's a reason D&D has Common. It's better than Charades.
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I know gameology-fu.
Talen Lee
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« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2008, 04:37:32 PM »

Being fair, charades can be shitloads of fun.

What I intend to do if I wind up like that is to have two stranded PCs talking in their own languages, trying to charade their communication, only to have an NPC yell in the one language they both have in common that they didn't try when they tried to talk.
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X-Codes
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« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2008, 02:15:21 AM »

Being fair, charades can be shitloads of fun.

What I intend to do if I wind up like that is to have two stranded PCs talking in their own languages, trying to charade their communication, only to have an NPC yell in the one language they both have in common that they didn't try when they tried to talk.
For one level, I can see where it's fun.  Next level, take a rank of Speak Language.
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Talen Lee
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« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2008, 03:09:58 AM »

I wouldn't even make 'em put up with it for a level. One SESSION.
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DiamondMX
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« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2008, 02:31:33 PM »

Wow, Logan - you're a jackass.
Flannel - you're even more of a jackass.

Absolutely forbidding players to play another gender because it bothers you is so utterly close-minded that I boggle to think that people game with you as the GM.
Enforcing ridicule on those players that do is equally bad.

I have played in games with players who play as opposite genders time and time again, and some of these aren't even particularly good roleplayers - but all it takes is a little effort and you're not going to offend anyone with a tiny bit of open-mindedness.

Just ... wow, guys. Get back in your caves.
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Zeke
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« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2008, 03:05:40 PM »

I think sometimes gender bending makes people uncomfortable. I operate under the premise that you are friends, or at least friendly, with the people you play with. Therefore, sometimes it's ok not to make your friends uncomfortable on purpose. If you're the one uncomfortable it's OK to say that. I don't beleive  the GM should be controlling those kinds of aspects of character creation though.
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tsuyoshikentsu
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« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2009, 10:27:06 PM »

Show Commentary: Episode 26

You know, when Josh said "Gor," the first thing I thought of was Al Gore.  Closely followed by those power robots from Star Wars.  Which, in a roundabout way, he kind of is.

Kudos to Zeke for nailing Kwisatz Haderach the way I'd always imagined it; but I'd always thought you'd also say Bene Gesserit the Hebrew way.  I hear it as "beh-NAY GEH-seh-REET," which follows Hebrew rules and would actually translate to "Children of [Something]."

Brilliant Duneologists: The Gameology Must Flow!
Brilliant Duneologists: Take Spice Like You Have To!
Brilliant Duneologists: Leto Atreides Is An Asshole

Hey, at least you'd stil lbe welcome in Boston if you were Mario.  Or at least the North Shore.

I'd like to point out that I'm occasionally an opinionator.  Only when I really, really, REALLY want to screw with the people on the thread, though.  (Meg may disagree with me, acerbic as I am.  No, I will not let that go, because it's FUNNY at this point.)

You make good points about how to have a logical discussion, especially when it comes to non-sequitors.  That said, I can't really agree that you shouldn't agree to disagree; in real life I see your point, but on a forum a long, heated argument can be more disruptive to the boards then helpful.  Sometimes it really is better to back down.

...OMG.  Can we NOT have a discussion about arguments on the internet that don't devolve into formal debate?

Also, Josh?  I know you're a fightah.  Case in point: any time the words "lacks tactical options, and therefore fails as an action-adventure system" appear on the boards. ;-)

Interestingly: I've played with a LOT of females, and I've only ever played with one that played a male.  This is in RL; I see a lot of women as men online.  But then, I see a lot more men as women online as well.

I like Rule 7.  The sex one.

Hey!  Rule 1 is the same as on the boards!  Does that mean everyone there is gender-bending? Big Grin

I think with Rule 2 Josh means to cry.  Because Josh likes making people cry.

Rule 3 is awesome advice.  Your character doesn't see it as anything unusual (in most circumstances;) why should you?

Rule 4 is in a similar vein, and I like it too.  You will get bored really fast.  The Hillary comparison is a good one, which is annoying because I DESPISE her.  Same with Rule 5.

I, uhm.  May have actually checked the intelligent items section to see if any were lesbian.

Sex is not the only decision a girl makes.  Unless she's Meg.  Also, sex + arson = AWESOME.

I'm... not actually sure if Zeke is talking about characters anymore once he gets to the ice queen.  That said?  I've seen a man-hating lesbian terrorist — actually a gun-toting Togrudan smuggler in SWSAGA — played by a woman.  (A lesbian, actually.)  The character is actually interesting and effective, because while she has real respect for the man who owns the ship she works on, the others are pretty disdained.  That relationship, though, gives her character enough interesting depth that she comes off feeling like one of the stronger members of the party.  Certainly stronger than the guy who's playing himself crossed with Obi-Wan Kenobi, down to the speech mannerisms.

I hate, hate, HATE the abuse victim thing.  I've met a lot of survivors of abuse, actually — a completely distressing number — and none of them are like this.  And it's just offensive to me, because these people who I care about deeply are a lot stronger than the people who make that stereotype want to make them out to be.  I agree with you all, though — the "woe is me!" one is even worse.

You can have AWESOME mother characters — see Harry Potter.  "NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH!" Big Grin

HOLY CRAP YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BURNING WHEEL AND I UNDERSTOOD IT.  And to bring it back to Burning Duneologists, there's a Fremen Wife (or X Wife, where X is whatever word they use for Fremen) lifepath in Jihad that seems like you could do really cool things with.

Meg, your Sarah Palin impression is spot-on and that's scary.  I also fully expect your forum avatar to change to Marie Curie soon.

Man, Josh, I wish you were running a Jihad game.  It'd be awesome.

Ooh!  It could also be Josh playing a character that says, "I LOVE World of Darkness!  Who needs tactical options?  They're not REALLY necessary!"

RE Crazy: RESEARCH YOUR DAMN DISORDER.  Don't do ADD, for example, without playing up the INTENSE focus that ADD comes with.  (Don't know what I'm talking about?  Look it up.)

Stereotypical old guy can work.  Remember Jolee Bindo?

The opposite of an Edge is a Hindrance.  Read SR4.

Great examples of functional blind characters are Kreia and Visas from KOTOR II.  They have interesting ways of overcoming it, and when it gets noticed they really run with it.  (I personally love Kreia's speech about "I have a better way of seeing," etc.  It's one of the most memorable moments in the game for me.)

That said, I disagree with you on House.  You constantly NOTICE House's disability, but it's not constantly an issue.  I agree that his addiction is, but the leg only really becomes the FOCUS of the scene in a few episodes.  (Season 3, Episode 1 springs to mind.)  But just because he limps a lot doesn't mean that in an RPG, he'd be taking negative attention.

I think the difference is actually in how the player plays it.  We know that, if a player was playing House in Savage Worlds, say — the first system that comes to mind with a really good way to present his disability — he'd be walking with a limp whether the player announced it or not.  But if the player DOES spend all his time announcing it, then it's a problem — sort of like if every time we saw House walking, it was with a litany of slight cries of pain, or grunts, or "woe is me!" comments, or the like.  Same with twirling the cane, or using it to open doors: if the player writes it on his sheet and mentions it once or twice, that's flavor.  If the player announces it EVERY DAMN TIME, then it's annoying.

...NO.  NO.  NO.  No Meisner, no Method.  FUCKING TERRIBLE IDEA.  (Sorry, as an actor you've hit upon my real dislikes here.)  The best way to build a character in acting is to look at the text, and figure out what the text is telling you.  I'm not gonna talk about RPGs, but PLEASE don't recommend those two schools to other people.  They're basically the entire reason for crappy actors.  (Stanislavsky's okay, but make sure you read his second and third books as well as his first.)

Okay, using the memory of losing someone?  Terrible idea #2.  I've done a bit of Method, which is how I know I don't like it, and the NUMBER ONE thing every teacher I had said is this: if it's especially painful, like losing a loved one, DON'T DO IT.  Continually immersing yourself in that pain is a terrible thing to do to yourself, and it can mess you up really badly.  If for some reason you think it's better to go MEthod, stay in a place that you can take yourself back from.  You need to be able to get into a role every night, but you also need to be able to get yourself out of it.  There are a lot of theatre people who know Method and think that not being able to bring himself out of it was why Heath Ledger killed himself.  (He was Method, if you didn't know.)

Making positive choices is a good thing to import from Method, though.  Making negative ones just cuts you off.

I actually don't have much to say about the voice stuff except that the advice is sound.  (No pun intended.)  It reminds me very much of my first year of Voice and Speech, way back in tenth grade.  One thing I didn't hear you say is about the focus of where you speak.

When you speak in American dialect — okay, there are like twenty, but this applies to most of the more "neutral" ones — the focus of your sounds is on the middle of your mouth.  Try focusing on different parts of your mouth when you talk — think about your lips the whole time, for example, and move them as much as possible when you make sounds.  You'll automatically sound a bit more New England.  Do the same with your teeth and you get a little British.  It's fun to play around with.
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