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Author Topic: Create-a-Feat-Chain!  (Read 6597 times)
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bkdubs123
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« on: October 23, 2008, 03:43:44 AM »

The idea is pretty simple, but I'm here to outline the rules:

1) The feat chain must be exactly four feats long.

2) As a feat chain, each higher feat in the chain must require each lower feat in the chain. (Duh! Wink )

Considering there aren't all that many feats that require ability scores higher than 13+ why don't we come up with some of those? Also there aren't a great deal of feats that can't be taken until 5-10th level, or 15-20 level. For some reason it seems like these two ranges of levels are particularly void of interesting feats, so make 'em count!

SO! I'll get us started, shall I?

I - Deceitful Defense
Prerequisites: Dodge, Bluff 4 Ranks
Benefit: You may add your charisma modifier to the Dodge AC granted by your Dodge feat.

II - Sense Treachery
Prerequisites: Dodge, Deceitful Defense, Sense Motive 9 Ranks
Benefit: Enemies you have targeted with your Dodge feat take a penalty to the following skills when used against you equal to 1/2 your ranks in Sense Motive: Bluff, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Sleight of Hand, Tumble.

III - Confounding Concert
Prerequisites: Dodge, Deceitful Defense, Sense Treachery, Bluff 15 Ranks
Benefit: You may declare two enemies the target of your Dodge feat at once. If those foes are flanking you whenever one of them misses you it instead attacks the other flanker using the same attack roll, but against the new defender's AC. The new defender is flat-footed against the attack, which deals sneak attack damage equal to 1d6/5 ranks you have in Bluff.

IV - Mind Boggler [Tactical]
Prerequisites: Dodge, Deceitful Defense, Sense Treachery, Confounding Concert, Bluff 18 Ranks, Sense Motive 18 Ranks
Benefit: The Mind Boggler feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.

Open Book: Whenever a foe misses you with a melee attack you can make a Sense Motive check as a free action opposed by your opponent's Level Check (1d20+HD), to which he adds his wisdom modifier. If you succeed you can detect his surface thoughts as the spell Detect Thoughts.

Baffling Blow: If a foe missed you with an attack last round you can make a Bluff check as part of an attack action against that foe against your foe's Level Check (1d20+HD) to which he adds his wisdom modifier. If your check succeeds the foe is confused for 1d4 rounds.

Sharp-edged Mind: If you dealt damage to a foe last round with an attack you are protected as if by Mind Blank for this round.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 05:27:14 PM by bkdubs123 » Logged
SiggyDevil
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2008, 03:49:59 AM »

You might not like this response but.... I wouldn't take these feats. They would be suboptimal combat picks... UNLESS you put all 4 in to 1 scaling feat.
You might have read that concept before, but seriously, it works.
A character would have 3 more feat slots left open, plus these slowly-awakening abilities (skill rank dependant), and be combat-competent for warrior standards.
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woodenbandman
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2008, 09:11:01 AM »

Agreed, the first two aren't all that worth it, the last two are pretty awesome, though. If that 3rd one was just by itself with dodge as a prereq, and then you could take the last one when you had dodge, that feat, and BAB 6 (Ala Shock Trooper), it would rock.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2008, 09:25:58 AM »

I had someone tell me that Deceitful Defense was completely broken at GitP today. I LOLed. No one wants to play my game? I'm sort of invested in feat chains because I made up a system for "Fighters" where they prepare lots of feats from different "Tiers" hence the four different sets of prereq requirements.
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2008, 10:31:45 AM »

I – Awareness:
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Combat Focus, Spot or Listen 4 Ranks
Benefit: You are never considered Flat-Footed.  You may still be Flanked as normal.

II – Instant Reaction:
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Combat Focus, Awareness, Spot or Listen 9 Ranks
Benefit:  You may always act in the Surprise Round.  Your Initiative in the Surprise Round is treated as if you had rolled a 20.  After the Surprise Round, roll Initiative normally.

III – Dumbfounding Attack:
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Combat Focus, Awareness, Instant Reaction, Spot or Listen 15 Ranks
Benefit:  Any enemy you damage in the Surprise Round is at -4 to her Initiative, and is considered Flat-Footed for AC purposes for the first regular round of combat.

IV – Never Alone:
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Combat Focus, Awareness, Instant Reaction, Dumbfounding Attack, Spot or Listen 18 Ranks
Benefit:  You may share the benefit of Instant Reaction with up to 2 allies within 30' of you.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2008, 11:14:25 AM »

Yea! Those are AWESOME. Okay, I might as well post up my Sneak Attack chain for great success.

I - Sneak Attack
Prereqs: BAB +1, Hide 6 ranks, Move Silently 6 ranks
Benefit: When you attack a flat-footed foe, as long as you are unobserved, you gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll and deal +2d6 damage. This is treated as a Sneak Attack.
Special: When you use this against creatures that are immune to critical hits you gain only a +1 bonus to the attack roll and deal only +1d6 damage.

II - Silent but Deadly
Prereqs: Sneak Attack, BAB +4, Hide 9 ranks, Move Silently 9 ranks
Benefit: When you attack a flat-footed foe, as long as you are unobserved, you do not need to roll to hit. Your attack is treated as a Coup de Grace.
Special: You may use this against creatures that are immune to critical hits you must roll an attack roll, but get a +4 bonus. If you hit you deal +3d6 damage. This is treated as a Sneak Attack.

II - Improved Sneak Attack
Prereqs: Sneak Attack, BAB +4, Hide 6 ranks, Move Silently 9 ranks
Benefit: You may perform Sneak Attacks against flat-footed foes, or against flanked foes, even if you are observed. When you do, you do not gain the bonus to the attack roll. Your Sneak Attacks deal an extra 2d6 damage.
Special: When you use this against creatures that are immune to critical hits you deal only half damage.

III - Greater Sneak Attack
Prereqs: Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, BAB +8, Hide 12 ranks, Move Silently 15 ranks
Benefit: Your Sneak Attacks deal an extra 2d6 damage. This stacks with the Improved Sneak Attack feat. You may now perform Coup de Grace attempts as full round actions against foes which you flank and who are flat-footed.
Special: When you use this against creatures that are immune to critical hits you deal only half damage. You cannot Coup de Grace opponents that are immune to critical hits in this way.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 05:30:37 PM by bkdubs123 » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 02:43:11 AM »

I had someone tell me that Deceitful Defense was completely broken at GitP today. I LOLed. No one wants to play my game? I'm sort of invested in feat chains because I made up a system for "Fighters" where they prepare lots of feats from different "Tiers" hence the four different sets of prereq requirements.

I lol too. And sorta weep for their sanity,

There's really nothing wrong with your feats. I mean, as a splash here and there it's fine, but for every feat here a character grabs that's one less feat from their main combat routine (so sayeth The Gaming Den), and warriors tend to be damned feat-heavy.
I mean, you only get so many feats, and especially in early levels your limited number counts even more.
Sure, you could houserule that a character gets a new general feat every odd level (like I push for... only got that in a campaign once with friends, and I was DM...)


Compare this version to yours:


Mental Wargames(or Insert Feat Name Here)
Prerequisites: Dodge

Deceitful Defense
Bluff 4 Ranks: You may add your charisma modifier to the Dodge AC granted by your Dodge feat.

Sense Treachery
Sense Motive 9 Ranks: Enemies you have targeted with your Dodge feat take a penalty to the following skills when used against you equal to 1/2 your ranks in Sense Motive: Bluff, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Sleight of Hand, Tumble.

Confounding Concert
Bluff 15 Ranks: You may declare two enemies the target of your Dodge feat at once. If those foes are flanking you whenever one of them misses you it instead attacks the other flanker using the same attack roll, but against the new defender's AC. The attack gets a +2 bonus and deals sneak attack damage equal to 1d6/5 ranks you have in Bluff.

Mind Boggler
Bluff 18 Ranks, Sense Motive 18 Ranks: The Mind Boggler feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers:

Open Book: Whenever a foe misses you with a melee attack you can make a Sense Motive check as a free action opposed by your opponent's Level Check (1d20+HD), to which he adds his wisdom modifier. If you succeed you can detect his surface thoughts as the spell Detect Thoughts.
Baffling Blow: If a foe missed you with an attack last round you can make a Bluff check as part of an attack action against that foe against your foe's Level Check (1d20+HD) to which he adds his wisdom modifier. If your check succeeds the foe is confused for 1d4 rounds.
Sharp-edged Mind: If you dealt damage to a foe last round with an attack you are protected as if by Mind Blank for this round.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 03:07:39 AM »

There's really nothing wrong with your feats. I mean, as a splash here and there it's fine, but for every feat here a character grabs that's one less feat from their main combat routine (so sayeth The Gaming Den), and warriors tend to be damned feat-heavy.
I mean, you only get so many feats, and especially in early levels your limited number counts even more.
Sure, you could houserule that a character gets a new general feat every odd level (like I push for... only got that in a campaign once with friends, and I was DM...)

Yeah. I went even farther. The thing is that Warblades get what is (I'm estimating) roughly 19-20 feat equivalents. This assumes that every known maneuver is worth about 1/2 a feat (I'm being conservative here), every readied maneuver is worth about 1/4 a feat, every stance averages to be worth 1 feat, and the rest of the Warblade's class features combine to be worth 7~8 feats. So even if a Fighter got a feat every level he'd only almost equal a Warblade in power, but certainly not in versatility, and again this is assuming my very conservative estimate of the Warblade's abilities. With the feat preparation system my "Fighter" (renamed Warlord) gets 28 feats, prepared from varying "Tiers" of feats and class features, and knows 54 feats in total, able to switch between known feats and prepared ones about as easily as the Warblade. It hasn't been tested, and may well need tweaked just looking at the numbers like this, but the system certainly relies on feats, and relies on the really low level feats with few prereqs being individually not all that good.

Quote
Compare this version to yours:

And, yeah, I knew what you meant, where you were going. I think the Tome feats are a great system, and one that works for them. For me it's too much work going through and re-writing every feat that I want in my game. WAAAY too much, lol.
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SiggyDevil
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 04:20:10 AM »

Hmmmm your estimate is a bit off.

Warblades are far better than Fighters. Farrrr better.

Also, it's difficult to equate the worth of a spell or maneuver to a single feat, since the worth of a feat is measured by how well it synergizes with the entire character it is applied to.
For instance, Power Attack on a TWF build might be good but it's certainly better of a Greatsword-swinging Barbarian/FB, whereas a TWF feat on that same build is quite useless and yet on a dual-wielding Rogue it's essential.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 04:37:13 AM »

As I said, it's a very conservative estimate Smile

I'll get my Warlord over here in double quick time so you get slash the system to pieces.  Big Grin
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EjoThims
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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2008, 07:17:48 AM »

I had someone tell me that Deceitful Defense was completely broken at GitP today.

It could be very powerful in the right builds. 3x Cha to AC is great for a party face.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2008, 07:23:54 AM »

I had someone tell me that Deceitful Defense was completely broken at GitP today.

It could be very powerful in the right builds. 3x Cha to AC is great for a party face.

Where do the other two Cha to ACs come from  Confused (1 from Arcane Duelist... I can't think of any others).
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veekie
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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2008, 07:34:23 AM »

The monk/sorc multiclass feat?
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EjoThims
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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2008, 07:37:09 AM »

Where do the other two Cha to ACs come from  Confused (1 from Arcane Duelist... I can't think of any others).

Arcane Duelist? Ew, no. That's capped.

One from Battledancer, and one from Ascetic Mage (replaces Wis with Cha for Monk AC bonus, requires only IUS, not monk levels. Anyone who can spontaneously cast arcane spells level 2+ and has IUS can take the feat and wear a Monk's Belt to get Cha to AC).

There are others as well, but they're probably a little harder to work in.
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« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2008, 04:42:05 PM »

Shouldn't have to splat-dive to get good benefits out of CHA, really....

New creations that do the same are fine but make sure the bonuses are always typed.
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2008, 05:30:20 PM »

make sure the bonuses are always typed.

+1

But really, I was just pointing out that the first feat could be very powerful, not always a waste like some said, but still definitely not OP like GitP claimed.  Wink
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2008, 06:22:38 PM »

Knee-Jerk
Pre-Requisites: Blind-Fight or Uncanny Dodge class feature, Combat Reflexes
Benefit: When you are hit in melee by an enemy you are unaware of, they provoke an attack of opportunity from you.  For your attack of opportunity, you know where the enemy is and negate any concealment they may have (including total concealment).  If your attack of opportunity hits, you become aware of the enemy and pinpoint it's location, negating any bonuses or penalties related to them attacking you while you are unaware.
The number of attacks of opportunity you can take in a round increases by 1.

Improved Knee-Jerk
Pre-Requisites: BAB +6, Blind-Fight or Improved Uncanny Dodge class feature, Combat Reflexes, Knee Jerk
Benefit: You can take opportunity attacks and immediate actions during the surprise round and first round, regardless of whether or not you have acted yet.
The number of attacks of opportunity you can take in a round increases by 1.

Battle Nerves [Tactical]
Pre-Requisites: BAB +11, Blind-Fight or Improved Uncanny Dodge class feature, Combat Reflexes, Improved Knee-Jerk, Knee-Jerk
Benefit: The number of attacks of opportunity you can take in a round increases by 1.  In addition, having the Battlefield Alerness feat allows you to use the following maneuvers:
Battlefield Patrol: If an ally is attacked by an enemy they are not aware of, you can use this ability as an immediate action before the attack is resolved.  You pinpoint the square the enemy is in.  If the enemy can be reached, you can make a partial charge attack at the enemy (or take a 5' step and attack if the enemy is too close), ignoring any concealment (including total concealment) the enemy has for the attack.  If your attack hits, the enemy's attack is ruined and both you and the ally he attacked become aware of him and pinpoint his position, negating any bonuses or penalties related to him attacking either of you while you are unaware.
Nervous Disposition: Your ticks and jumpiness cause any enemy within 10' of you to take a -2 penalty on saving throws against fear and confusion effects.
Battlefield Flit: Whenever you hit with an attack of opportunity, you can take a 5' step as a free action afterwards, regardless of any movement made during your turn.

Flailing Reactions
Pre-Requisites: BAB +16, Battle Nerves, Blind-Fight or Improved Uncanny Dodge class feature, Combat Reflexes, Improved Knee-Jerk, Knee-Jerk
Benefit: Whenever an enemy provokes an opportunity attack, you can choose to resolve that attack normally or to use this feat.  Make an attack roll, all creatures within your melee reach must then make a Reflex save with a DC equal to your attack roll -10.  Roll damage for your weapon.  Any enemy that fails their Reflex save takes full damage from your weapon and suffer any additional effects related to being struck by your weapon (such as the Wounding property or the Three Mountains feat).  If they succeed on their reflex save, they take half damage from your attack but suffer no additional effects related to being struck by your weapon.
The number of attacks of opportunity you can take in a round increases by 1.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2008, 09:05:12 AM »

Way cool, X. Thanks for participating. Smile

Let's relax the restrictions, eh? New chains should still remain 4 feats long (at least). And feats that can be taken from levels 5-10 and 15-20 are still lacking, so those are always good to make. (Edited the OP to reflect the new criteria)

Anyway, here's a ToB feat chain (it builds off an existing one)

I - Martial Study
II - Martial Stance

III - Sublime Innovator
Prereqs: Martial Study, Martial Stance, BAB +4 or higher
Benefit: You may use the ability score modifier of your choice to determine the save DCs of maneuvers you use, and add +1 to the save DCs of maneuvers you use.

IV - Sublime Dedication
Prereqs: Martial Study, Martial Stance, Sublime Innovator, BAB +8 or higher
Benefit: You treat your character level as your initiator level and add +1 to the save DCs of maneuvers you use (stacks with Sublime Innovator).
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 10:18:31 AM by bkdubs123 » Logged
InnaBinder
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2008, 09:12:39 AM »

Way cool, X. Thanks for participating. Smile

Let's relax the restrictions, eh? You don't have to follow the above requirements for the "Tiers" of feats. However, new chains should still remain 4 feats long (at least). And feats that can be taken from levels 5-10 and 15-20 are still lacking, so those are always good to make.

Anyway, here's a ToB feat chain (it builds off an existing one)

I - Martial Study
II - Martial Stance

III - Collegiate Martial Study
Prereqs: Martial Study, Martial Stance, BAB +4 or higher
Benefit: You treat your character level as your initiator level.

IV - Sublime Dedication
Prereqs: Martial Study, Martial Stance, Collegiate Martial Study, BAB +8 or higher
Benefit: You may use the ability score modifier of your choice to determine the save DCs of maneuvers you use, and add +2 to the save DCs of maneuvers you use.
My reading of these makes III the potentially more powerful ability, and therefore the one that should be last in the chain.  Frx, Monk 6/Swordsage 1/Psychic Warrior 3/ Master of Nine 10 (with 2 Flaws) gets a +9 boost to Initiator level, probably at the instant they take the Feat.  I'm sure it can be broken harder than that, but I'm working a Mo9 build at the moment so it's what occurred to me.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2008, 10:14:39 AM »

My reading of these makes III the potentially more powerful ability, and therefore the one that should be last in the chain.  Frx, Monk 6/Swordsage 1/Psychic Warrior 3/ Master of Nine 10 (with 2 Flaws) gets a +9 boost to Initiator level, probably at the instant they take the Feat.  I'm sure it can be broken harder than that, but I'm working a Mo9 build at the moment so it's what occurred to me.

Agreed. However, I still wouldn't call that broken. Just really nice. I will switch the order and prereqs and rename Collegiate. If it is broken though (by which I mean that it can result in power levels over 9000) I'll certainly change it once I see why.
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