Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]

[veekie]

Depends, Pelor probably would have the eye-lasers

[Soda]

I don't like that the monk can't get imp trip without int 13. 

In fact, I'm having a real hard time qualifying for any feats with the monk.

[RobbyPants]

The Improved Turning feats weren't designed to work with the alternate abilities.

I don't think the monk needs to qualify for Improved Trip; he just gets it.

[Soda]

You mean the way the old monk doesn't have to meet the prereqs? Because the new monk just gets fighter feats, which is fine except for cases like improved trip. I'd like a good solution, because I believe monks would be among the most likely to trip or disarm (according to my internal fantasy setting). It could be even as simple as a feat to allow a monk to sub Wis for Int prereqs. I wouldn't mind having to take Combat Expertise and then Imp Trip (which the old monk doesn't have to), but I cannot stomach the 13 Int.

I know the new monk gets a scaling bonus to combat maneuvers, but you still really need imp trip.


EDIT- Rereading Combat Insight, they get a free attack after a successful combat maneuver. This ability is clunky (by raw it seems to give a free attack after you hit with an attack of opportunity). And it doesn't take away the AoO against you for making the trip attack.

I've mentioned all these things about the monk before. I think they should have a short list of feats they can take without meeting the prereqs, and I think Combat Insight should be changed to "you can use your Wis mod instead of your Str mod on attack rolls with unarmed strikes. and you can use your Wis mod instead of your Str or Dex on opposed rolls for grappling, tripping, etc."

The way I envision the monk, wisdom would half-replace str and dex. If you want a little more damage, you can pump Str. If you want a little more AC, you can pump Dex. But you'll still be able to hit and not be hit either way.

[Soda]

Uhh, can open lock be part of disable device or is that more of a houserule? I mean, picking a lock is definitely disabling a device.

[RobbyPants]

We could discuss it in Skills & Feats.

Sunic_Flames brought up this issue a while ago.  The fact that the DC is easier for Disable Device than for Open Lock makes it more attractive (a "wicked" device has a DC of 25; the max listed).  Also, an adamantine bolt or dagger can easily destroy any non-adamantine mechanics.

Now, if we don't re-write it at all, there are some situations where Open Lock is better.  Namely, you can re-use the lock, so it might be better for covering your tracks.  The adamantine bolt approach might not work if the lock is trapped.

___

On a personal level, I'm not sure that I want to change it.  I agree with Midnight_V that we've made several "lateral" changes, which while different, don't necessarily fix anything.  They fall more under house-rules.  What I'd like to do at some point is separate these from the project, and I can come up with a stream-lined set of fixes, and an alternate list of house-rules (similar to Unearthed Arcana).

[Midnight_v]

I... I don't want to "split" the project. All I'm saying is the casters should be revaluated to match the goal.

Make all the classes = to tier3 (or rather the Tob).
Which for powering up the melee classes those are some of the best most playable fixes ever.
De-powering (which was going to be a harder job anyway) Missed the mark only because too many influence + backlash for being "teh awsome" made casters below everyone we fixed.
The project in my opinion is actually largely a success. The caster fixes need to be reviewed and thats all.
Frankly a part of the problem that we face is largely being too "reactionary" and doing extreme things without thinking them through, fully.
Though on some level I can understand not wanting to lose whats already been done at least for posterity.

On casters... as soon as I can I'm going to do a "things that work" and things that don't.
On of the most succesful simple fixes was the druid.
You get either shapeshifter variant or an animal companion I thought that was pretty good.
I also think very highly of the spell fixes like blasphemy and polymorph line.
Things like that was really all the casters needed and what was originally planned.
The new turn undead mechanic? Badass. perfect. (as I remeber, I should probbably make sure you can still rebuke before I say that but as I rember you can)
i'll organize the good stuff later.
Still those are the types of changes that needed to be made. Changing whole spell progressions was not.
Ahh evocation works now. Some good.

[RobbyPants]

Well, when I said "split the project", that second half was going to be something I was doing more for my own games.  I'd just post it here for collective ideas.

I'm just talking about stream-lining this down to something that still works, but isn't unnecessarily large or complex.

[Soda]

Can I get a response on the monk? If I had to solve it simply, how about this?

"Combat Insight (Ex): Starting at 3rd level the monk gains a +1 insight bonus on attacks of opportunity, and opposed Disarm, Grapple and Trip attempts. Additionally, the monk does not provoke an attack of opportunity from attempting a Disarm, Grapple, or Trip check and whenever the monk succeeds at such a check, she may make a free attack against her foe (at her highest attack bonus). This attack isn't considered an attack of opportunity. This insight bonus improves by +1 every 3 levels thereafter.


I just reordered the wording and added the "doesn't provoke AoOs".

[Pyrefox]

- Although I really love the original Druid, I agree it's not a bad modification... u_u'

Now, a few ideas:

- About the Cleric, someone said it could be mostly based on Domain Spells. Why not expand the Domains to 2 or 3 spells per level, remove the domain spells from the main Cleric spell list, and let the Cleric automatically know all of her domain spells and have spontaneous cast on them while having a limited number of known spells from the main list?

- Last thing I still need to bring up again. Everyone is talking about spellcasters, and the Bards are also spellcasters. I really don't like that, but they are. I think that their spellcasting ability can't be boosted (or that would unbalance the class and make their spells unnecessarily powerful) nor reduced (or that would represent almost no spell power). What I think they need is a boost to what should be their most important ability, the music. I think the Bard needs a better list of Songs (as the Warlocks have their Evocations...). Or something like that. Also, it would be VERY nice to add some class features to make it easier to use a lot of Perform skills (just like skill bonuses as, for example, the Cavalier has Ride bonuses). The Bard could add Perfomr bonuses to different types of Perform as a Ranger does for their Favored Enemies...

[Soda]

Oooh, music as invocations is a good idea. I think ideally, maneuvers, spells, and invocations should be the main "power sources".

[RobbyPants]

Can I get a response on the monk? If I had to solve it simply, how about this?

Midnight_V and Risada were the two who wrote up the class, so they might answer it better than me.  Still, as worded, it looks like you need to qualify for Improved Trip (which does suck).  Still, I can't say for sure what their intention was.

As for making bard "invocations" it's something I personally feel should be left out of the project itself, but it could be an intertesting idea for a house-rule of sorts.  I do agree with Midnight_V that we've introduced unnecessary changes in this project that might be good or interesting, but they aren't needed to further balacne.  I'm going to try to limit that here, but I'm also planning on writing up some house-rules for things I'd like to change on a personal level, as opposed to balance fixes.

[Pyrefox]

Well, I'm glad the Songs as Invocations idea was appreciated. I'm going to suggest more things that could help the Bard with the balance (as I strongly believe they're being left behind with this balancing set).

1- You could add a few Bonus Feats for class skills (Skill Focus (+3) and those that concede (+2) on two different skills), to help with the Perform skills (or maybe to enable an appealing thievery build, as the Bard leans a bit towards that way).

2- Maybe something that makes better use of the Bard's Charisma will do the trick... (Charisma to the saving throws would be too much, but that could be limited by encounter or could be daily). Maybe a feature that could be used, changing a specific Saving Throw base ability to Charisma and enabling the "Mettle/Evasion" effect, but that would be limited to 1or2/day and at higher levels 3or4/day.

3- You could add more of those effects like Fascinate and Suggestion... Some stunning effect? Maybe a power up to the countersong (backlash?). For advanced Bards something like the Nymph's and Dryad's beauty, based on Charisma, but also based on Perform checks.

4- Last, something that uses the Perform as the Iajutsu Focus would be nice. The higher the result of the Perform check is, the more powerful that effect would be (Morale effects? Fear? Use Perform as Intimidate? who knows xD).

[RobbyPants]

Well, I'm glad the Songs as Invocations idea was appreciated. I'm going to suggest more things that could help the Bard with the balance (as I strongly believe they're being left behind with this balancing set).

I'll move this to the Core Classes thread.

[Risada]

Can I get a response on the monk? If I had to solve it simply, how about this?

Midnight_V and Risada were the two who wrote up the class, so they might answer it better than me.  Still, as worded, it looks like you need to qualify for Improved Trip (which does suck).  Still, I can't say for sure what their intention was.

I proposed this because the monk get to do various combat tricks, but don't excel at them, so they needed a small boost. That's all I was thinking when I came up with this.

Soda, thanks for your suggestion. I didn't see the text was messed up.

[RobbyPants]

Added changes to Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Far Shot to the feats section.

[Midnight_v]

Added changes to Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Far Shot to the feats section.

Bravo! 

[Hallack]

Just noticed the Compilation PDF.  yeah, I know... 

Anyways, checking it out now.  So far so good.  Will probably put out to some of my buddies and may even use it in my new game I'm starting up.

[RobbyPants]

Just to let you know, this was never fully completed, so you may find some gaps here and there.  Still, I think it's an improvement to the game as a whole.

I hope it works out nicely for you!

[Kuroi Kenshi]

Good stuff!