Out of Character -- Technical Discussion

[Omen of Peace]

Note that I edited my previous post. Several times.

Sorry to make you look through your books - I could have explained it. You're also missing a tiny piece: the Fearsome armor enchantment in Drow of the Underdark which allows to Demoralize (the Intimidate combat ability) as a move action.
In the first round, Elia would probably trigger Dreadful Wrath with Dance of Death (the vestige Paimon's ability). Technically it's neither a full-attack nor a charge but it should trigger IMO : she makes one attack against each foe she passes by so she can end up making more attacks than in a full-attack if there are enough foes close by.

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Is an Elan ok for the psionic Astral master ? A Synad ? A Phrenic Bugbear ?

[fil kearney]

I imagine shifter ACF is in MoE?

RoE actually.  Basically, instead of an animal companion, it gives a kind of internal animal connection.

how about the sapphire hierarch?

Magic of Incarnum.  As far as I'm concerned, it's basically just a dual progression divine caster/manifester; the other abilities aren't very interesting.

If we are re-flavoring, nature flavor makes sense for this guy.  Maybe replace the Law domain requirement with Animal domain?  The abilities are all really minor, so if we wanted to add other really minor stuff or just take away what's there, that's fine.

is your plan with barb to buff then rage?

I wanted rage because this character really should have rage.  It fits thematically.  Putting Barb back in instead of using the druid variant was just for pounce

edit:  And about the spell points, I've never tried it.  As the one with probably the most to gain, I can't say I'd be opposed to it...

shifter ACF yes.
Sapphire hierarch:  yes with mod...
drop the need for law domain, lose the comuning with the big blue ball.
You can reflavor the smite to an alignment of your choice that opposes yours.

Really cool class! glad you asked.


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omen: honestly anything other than githyanki is technically fine, and if you pushed hard you could have the rogue gith as well.. I'm looking for things to tie the party together as a team.  that part is not coming along so well, so I am being forced to take liberties with people's lives now.

help me help all of you, all of you!
more to come later....

[Omen of Peace]

Part of the point of giving depth (or breadth perhaps in this case) to her backstory is that maybe another player will go : "oh, a psionic weapon master, totally my character's thing too !" and we'll have something else to work with.

Just another dump of random thoughts:
Meriabo sneaked into Mordain's domain as part of a team. Elia and her friends killed on of them and he switched sides ? (That doesn't seem very professional, but maybe the odds were really against them.) Elia took the opportunity to escape definitely (she tried before but was recaptured).

I'll add stuff and put it in the wiki later - gotta run.

[fil kearney]

read the revised.  thanks for the heads up.
yeah.  cleric/sublimeranger/RKV is a good idea.  I don't think allowing Soldier of light to incrase everyone's saves is a good solution to folks having huge saves.
don't take that as nerfin... I"m just trying to keep statistics from over inflating.... I can add HP easy to anything, but start mesin with the r stats and saves stuff... it will be outrageous quickly.
better for the rest to rein yoursel in a bit than to figure how to cange everyone esle... I think you have already demonstrated that stance, and it is appreciated.  we've got 20+ levels to go, so no hurry.

doh. forgot skill tricks are once/enc....

revised:
-The winter's fey ability will give anyone ithin 5' a cha bonus of save penalties... we're gonna have to play with theat roleplaying wise a bit.  it'll be fun.
-dreadful wrath (PGtF) is a frightful presence effet that does not key off intimidate, but forces a save to everyone in 20 or be shaken.
-imperious command (DotU) allows a intimidate roll  to cower one oponent for 1 round, then shaken the next.
-fearful armor (DotU) changes ICom into a move action (not part of a move action)
-Neveroutnumbered allows Icom to be a 10' AoE once per enc.


This is all well within balance.
-winter requires you to be adjacent to take effect... I don't think that is a huge issue, but you are welcome to self impose limitations if you want...?
-dance of death I red as not a full attack, but a full round action (not a 1 round... just your entire turn.. swift, move and standard action).. which technically doesn't trigger dreadful wrath.  Not what you wanted, but we can fiddle with that in epic.
-Dwrath lasts one minute. Icom lasts 2 rounds... I don't see where raw says all fear stacking lasts the length of longest effect... even if it does I agree with you, so cowering one round and then frigtening for a second,  leaving them shaken for the rest is not a big issue.
 we would need a new source of fear to frighten them again....


due to general lack of inteest, I'll drop the spell poit idea.   *shrug*

have i missed anything?  keep em coming folks!

[Omen of Peace]

I agree transparency is good, but I hope the technical stuff is not driving people away.  :-[

More stuff about Elia's abilities:

I don't think allowing Soldier of light to incrase everyone's saves is a good solution to folks having huge saves.

We're in agreement ; I'm dropping it.

don't take that as nerfin... I"m just trying to keep statistics from over inflating.... I can add HP easy to anything, but start mesin with the r stats and saves stuff... it will be outrageous quickly.
better for the rest to rein yoursel in a bit than to figure how to cange everyone esle... I think you have already demonstrated that stance, and it is appreciated.  we've got 20+ levels to go, so no hurry.

I don't mind self-nerfing at all. I always do it when playing high-level spellcasters...
I did it for this build too to a lesser extent.

This is all well within balance.
-winter requires you to be adjacent to take effect... I don't think that is a huge issue, but you are welcome to self impose limitations if you want...?

I think I will, though I'm not sure how I'll limit it yet. It makes ToB maneuvers with saves a lot better too. I picked Hand of Death from Shadow Hand which I'd usually never do (but for this one it helps that I have ways of making foes flatfooted).

-dance of death I red as not a full attack, but a full round action (not a 1 round... just your entire turn.. swift, move and standard action).. which technically doesn't trigger dreadful wrath.  Not what you wanted, but we can fiddle with that in epic.

RAW it doesn't... but I was hoping for some leeway given that it completely makes sense IMO (similarly, Never Outnumbered should trigger it IMO even though it's not a spell). No biggie. 
It is definitely a standard action however. See ToM p16 ("using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless otherwise noted" and all vestige abilities are supernatural).

-Dwrath lasts one minute. Icom lasts 2 rounds... I don't see where raw says all fear stacking lasts the length of longest effect... even if it does I agree with you, so cowering one round and then frigtening for a second,  leaving them shaken for the rest is not a big issue.

For the stacking rules, see Heroes of Horror p61 (Escalating Fear) or the Rules Compendium p53 (same section name). I've researched fear effects extensively in the past...

we would need a new source of fear to frighten them again....

Like a Fear spell that makes enemies shaken automatically ? 
Seriously though, having them shaken is fine with me. It's a decent debuff and it means we don't have to chase after fleeing enemies.

Dipping Avenging Executioner (Complete Scoundrel) would be another way - but again it could be become too strong.

[DaveTheMagicWeasel]

edit: oh, and Spectral Skirmisher + Stormguard is a clever little trick I didn't know about.

I think it might be a genuinely original trick (at least, I've never seen anyone mention it) - I was actually looking at Slashing Flurry when I noticed Spectral Skirmisher on the opposite page.

Re Saves

Owain has Base Saves of 9/8/5, with abilities (and Weak Willed/Ferocity/Primal Scream) factored in puts me at +11/+16/+4 before equipment.  So, I'd say dropping Divine Grace is gonna be about right.

Good lord that will save is appalling!  I might switch to normal rage just as a way of boosting that a little bit.

Re Fear

Is "cowering" actually a fear effect?  I always thought it was just shaken/frightened/panicked that the stacking rules referred to.

So, Imperious Command makes them cower for a round, and if they're still "double scared" after that then they turn and flee.  Strikes me as reasonably balanced tbh - there's enough things immune to fear and getting high save DCs isn't always easy.

Also, Omen, are you familiar with the Dilate Aura feat in Fiendish Codex 2?  It'd probably be broken combined with the Winter Unseelie ability, but could still be something worth considering for Chupoclops and Dreadful Wrath (if Dreadful Wrath is an aura?).

Avenging Executioner would be a good choice, not too strong at all - it's actually a very balanced class imo since you need a good investment of levels for purposes of save DCs, and the best abilities (Dread Blade and Bloody Murder) come at the end.

Re Background Integration

Tricky for me because a lot of Owain's background is already established:

- early life in Thrane military
- deserts during the Last War
- wanders round Khorvaire with Rass
- settles in Eldeen Reaches and joins Wardens.  Reconciles with Gwyn and together kill "the beast of Drakh Fen".
- and then at a certain point later rejoins with Gwyn in Thrane, travels to the Grove, and then dies.

So, if Talman does decide to be from the Eldeen Reaches then there's an easy association to make there.  Other than that, I'm looking for people who he could have met while wandering with Rass, or more likely, he's joined up with this current group since he died.

There's also the matter of his resurrection to consider.  I've got 4 basic options:
1. Gwyn did it.  He can cast Raise Dead now, and Resurrection next level, so we could just handwave it that at a certain point he finds out Owain is dead and brings him back (as you do).
2. Mordain did it.  The idea here was that this Mordain character has been experimenting with some sort of "Arcane/Incarnum Resurrection" - problem being that it doesn't quite work properly (hence Owain still has one foot on the grave - explaining his shadowy abilities, the turning Ethereal, etc).  If that's the case then there's an obvious shared history to be established with his fellow former experiments, the main difficulty I have with it is why Mordain decided to raise Owain of all people since I don't see any reason why he'd be even vaguely familiar with him.
3. The "Shadow Dragon" did it.  Again, explains the shadowy abilities, but I'll say no more since it may imply spoilers if members of the other game read this thread .
4. Owain doesn't know who did it - which doesn't give us any useful tie ins (though investigating who was responsible could be a plot hook in it's own right).

Any thoughts fil?

As for the psionic Warblade tutor - Talman is a Phrenic Swordsage (which also has DM), maybe shared a master with Elia?  (up to amalcon of course)

[AlisAtAn]

Sooo I`ve had time to think through this whole flaw madness. Fil, are we using custom items? Specifically I was looking into upgrading the "boots of striding and springing" into not giving +5 jump, but only a serious movement bonus. like, +30 instead of +10. Also I want to reroll the last flaw.

[amalcon]

So, if Talman does decide to be from the Eldeen Reaches then there's an easy association to make there.  Other than that, I'm looking for people who he could have met while wandering with Rass, or more likely, he's joined up with this current group since he died.

Talman is going to be originally from the Eldeen Reaches, but spending more time recently in Droaam.  We could probably work that connection.

[Avalon®]

Congratulations to avalon for attaining:
vulnerable= -1 to ac
weak willed= -3 to will saves

wtf with weak willed?

RE: word of creation:
1. be sure we have an exalted-friendly team (afb.. I recall WoC is rather BoED.. yes?)
This will impact the rest of the team more than it impacts you.
2. I'm gonna have to research the stacking method.  my gut says only the initial bonus, but I can be flexible depending on how the team fleshes out.  Are there any references regarding the issue to guide my decision?  (I"ve seen combat bard builds, but haven't thoroughly delved into the nuts and bolts.  I understand how to make it go, I just haven't put one together)

The only way to TRULY control the battlefield in this game is by introducing true obstacles and screens.

I read somewhere that there are accounts of Eberron's early days that say it was made from the music of creation by the dragons.

How about we go with that?

Also, even if we go with the more conservative route with Dragonfire Inspiration, that's still +9d6 damage.

Btw, does anyone have any ideas on how they met Maraxus?

[Omen of Peace]

[Me, me, me.]

Is "cowering" actually a fear effect?  I always thought it was just shaken/frightened/panicked that the stacking rules referred to.

It's not very explicit in the DMG but the Rules Compendium makes it abundantly clear.

So, Imperious Command makes them cower for a round, and if they're still "double scared" after that then they turn and flee.  Strikes me as reasonably balanced tbh - there's enough things immune to fear and getting high save DCs isn't always easy.

1) The debuffs play off of one another, making them harder to resist.
2) The Winter Chill aura
3) Intimidate is a skill check - easy to get sky high.
But yeah immunity to fear is a big damper. Perhaps I should go Dread Witch in 10 levels. 

Also, Omen, are you familiar with the Dilate Aura feat in Fiendish Codex 2?  It'd probably be broken combined with the Winter Unseelie ability, but could still be something worth considering for Chupoclops and Dreadful Wrath (if Dreadful Wrath is an aura?).

I wasn't - thanks for the tip ! I have no clue if DW is an aura to be honest - I'll look into it. But DW can be widened by an Amulet in Dragon Magic already so I'm not worried about it.

Avenging Executioner would be a good choice, not too strong at all - it's actually a very balanced class imo since you need a good investment of levels for purposes of save DCs, and the best abilities (Dread Blade and Bloody Murder) come at the end.

For your usual PC yes, but with all the debuffs I fear the save DC will be hard to make. I'm simply talking about the 1st level ability btw. (And the Bloodline also adds to the DC !)

I have one level I'm not sure what to use for - Monk, Avenging Executioner, Uncanny Trickster, RKV... There would be Bard+Snowflake Wardance but it's too good for me for now.

Update: I picked up Sickening Strike & Death Devotion (which "balances" Healing Devotion and is another nice debuff). I took the Darkness domain too ; this time I did it on purpose to make Owain and Elia closer "spiritually". I hope you don't mind, Dave (I already had it in mind in case I dipped CC of course - I didn't lift it from your build).

@Dave: you can combine 2 and 3 for instance. A dragon played with his soul... Later on, Mordain got ahold of the body (of a warrior fallen in the spirit world and touched by shadow - yummy !) and reused some of the stuff he had left behind from Elia and other experiments - creating a spiritual link between them that explains their similarities.

Since you won't get much use out of Wild Empathy, I recommend the Complete Champion ACF which gives you Speak with Animals/Plants as SLAs. I'm going for the Cityscape one for Elia. That way you deal with animals and plants and she'll deal with intelligent magical beasts & co.

@Avalon: I've always liked the "Music of Eberron" fluff so I'm all for that interpretation.
As for how we met your character, it would be helpful if you gave some anecdotes about his past (the Mourning was 10 years ago - he must have done something since then that he remembers) and/or some goals of his (how will he go about getting his memories back ? ...if he even wants to) and/or some personality traits.

[fil kearney]

Sooo I`ve had time to think through this whole flaw madness. Fil, are we using custom items? Specifically I was looking into upgrading the "boots of striding and springing" into not giving +5 jump, but only a serious movement bonus. like, +30 instead of +10. Also I want to reroll the last flaw.

for the record, I use ddog in my link for "public" dice rolls...
http://www.dndonlinegames.com/showthread.php?p=2888552#post2888552
you are all welcome to roll there too... great website.

Slow has been removed and in its place you have:
frail = -1 hp/level
vulnerable = -1 ac
and your first flaw was:
noncombatant = -2 melee attack rolls

that's more like what I expect from flaws

your speed is back to normal... and I personally don't have an issue with changeling adopting a small size with all the perks and penalties associated.

I DO allow custom items with DM approval.
So if you still want the increased speed in the boots... we'll just have to find a spell that  gives a 30' speed bump and build a permanent item out of that.  it'll be more pricey, but its on the table.

[AlisAtAn]

Actually I wanted to keep the low speed and get rid of the -2 to attack. Thats the biggest killer way I see it. You run once in a while (Hell, we`re high level. I can just fly when the need arises), but a -2 to ALL melee attacks, thats huge.

[fil kearney]

I read somewhere that there are accounts of Eberron's early days that say it was made from the music of creation by the dragons.

How about we go with that?

Also, even if we go with the more conservative route with Dragonfire Inspiration, that's still +9d6 damage.

Btw, does anyone have any ideas on how they met Maraxus?

still researching WoC... as a dragonborn, Song of Creation is perfect flavorwise!  
you now officially have a song in your head... less like lobo-- more like battlestar galactica final five.
how about this for some flavorful background fluff.. if you focus too closely on the song in your head-- you blank out.  It also grows louder when deja vu occurs.
So, that should give you plenty to chew on, and me some very juicy plot hooks.

I know that orwain's origional background/future plot hooks was somethin to do with a dragon prophecy.. could be that orwain recognizes the song of creation maraxus sings?

and if you really want to make a gordian knot out of this...
we put the consulting feature back into talman's sapphire hierarch, but flavor it "dragon", and consulting only occurs while hearing the song, or similar events.

I would judge anyone with 15 ranks in perform (sing) could correctly sing the song if they knew it... I don't know if orwain is looking to burn some skill points on fluff, but this would make an interesting little doohickey.

LOL most of the party would be walking around with this song just STUCK in their head... practically following it around on occassion... and it always leads them straight into...


thoughts?

[fil kearney]

Actually I wanted to keep the low speed and get rid of the -2 to attack. Thats the biggest killer way I see it. You run once in a while (Hell, we`re high level. I can just fly when the need arises), but a -2 to ALL melee attacks, thats huge.

oh.  okay.
im not rerolling again tho. 

frail = -1 hp/level
vulnerable = -1 ac
slow = 1/2 land speed

aha.  yeah, with the flurry and TF combo, yer right. -2 is bad.

easy enough!

[Omen of Peace]

Y'know, one hit with Destruction Devotion (CC) would counterbalance that -2 penalty. I almost went with it but Death Devotion fit Elia better. Anyone with Turn attempts can make good use of it though.
Boots of Expeditious Retreat would be ridiculously cheap - 4000gp following the DMG guidelines. But they're not very good for this stuff. One possibility would be (speed bonus)^2 x base value -> for instance 2k for +10, 8 for +20, 18 for +30. But +10 is too cheap and +30 too expensive... Say 10 -> 3k, 20 -> 8k, 30 -> 14k. Maybe.

Elia is a good dancer, and a decent singer even without training. Other than that, she has little existing connection with the Draconic Prophecy (another piece of Eberron I like, but I've already made characters tied to it in the past). Perhaps she's the only non-Cylon (despite or perhaps because she is the weirdest combination of races).
I like the link between Talman's Commune and the song, but it's not my place to decide.

[AlisAtAn]

Boots of Expeditious Retreat would be ridiculously cheap - 4000gp following the DMG guidelines. But they're not very good for this stuff. One possibility would be (speed bonus)^2 x base value -> for instance 2k for +10, 8 for +20, 18 for +30. But +10 is too cheap and +30 too expensive... Say 10 -> 3k, 20 -> 8k, 30 -> 14k. Maybe.

Hmm. I`d like to hear your thoughts on this, fil. the 20ft boots for 8k would probably be my pick.

[fil kearney]

Hmm. I`d like to hear your thoughts on this, fil. the 20ft boots for 8k would probably be my pick.

done.  20' enhancement bonus to speed for 8k boots.

Perhaps she's the only non-Cylon (despite or perhaps because she is the weirdest combination of races).
I like the link between Talman's Commune and the song, but it's not my place to decide.

Talman, Marux and Owain are plenty for the "dragon prophecy" angle.. in fact, (hehe) they could have  tracked down elia to specifically "ask the sphynx" about it's meaning.  
followed by droaam or other forces showing up ... "they're after me"... "they're after yoU?" simultaneously uniting the 5 together on the lamb some x years/months/weeks/days ago.  and then we are where we are... Elia idly curious,  the three trying to get the song out of/into their heads,  and however alis ties in to it.  not a bad place to begin.  

[amalcon]

we put the consulting feature back into talman's sapphire hierarch, but flavor it "dragon", and consulting only occurs while hearing the song, or similar events.

That's very cool.  I went ahead and named the modified class 'Emerald Hierarch', by the way.  Background's come along well, and I have the build updated again.  Comments on either are welcome (just please don't peek at the hidden stuff -- Fil, all I did was color it white, so you can just highlight it to read).

A little build discussion:

It's become a little nuts over time.  Everything barely fits, though, so it's good for now.  The cleric level is in there so I have somewhere to put the extra divine caster levels, because Emerald Hierarch is just cool.  I'm also likely to make heavy use (abuse?) of the retraining business, so Druid casting can start off good without wasting later caster levels.

I also need to pick an alignment.  I haven't played in a game that actually used alignment as such in so long... chaotic neutral, or possibly chaotic good, maybe?

[fil kearney]

holy crap amalcon that is a great build! 

you've got a traffic jam at level 17.. both nature warrior and hierarch award +1spellcasting that level... it doesnt matter for now, but you will want to make sure you are adding  to both druid AND cleric casting that level. 
considering the liberal retraining rules, this is simply bookkeeping.. but i wanted to mention it for the record... we can talk about "assume supernatural ability" feat once we hit epic.

otherwise, i've got nuthin to say, other than watcha think about the song of creation tie in?

[Omen of Peace]

Seems like a fun build, amalcon.
- note that we're doing a modified version of fractional saves (see Character creation). The maximum you can get at level is +9.

- I think you referred to Crystal Helm as making your attacks bypass DR in the past. As far as I can see, it doesn't work: your attacks gain the force descriptor but the damage is not converted to force damage so it's still reduced by DR. But there are items in the MIC that allow your weapons to count as silver or adamantine. With something like Align Fang (or perhaps more items) you should be set except against cold iron DR (or more exotic ones like byeshk but that's rare). If you took the Helm because of that I recommend you ditch it. The Gauntlets in MIC p216 will serve you much better vs incorporeals.

- Are you not missing some spellcasting levels ? I see Druid 5, Cleric 1, +10 from Hierarch, +some for Daggerspell Shaper, +some for Nature's Warrior... Druid has to cap at 11 but you could increase your Cleric CL more, no ?

As always, feel free to ignore me.