Out of Character -- Technical Discussion

[fil kearney]

You can buy upgrades as per normal +5 enhancement / +5 features / gp add-ons, but anything else would be a la legacy. 

This is a perfect example;
currently your options would be to buy keen or the feat improved crit: kukri, and then spend level 19 and 20 (or whatever) legacy on x3 and x4.

Or you can ditch the crit multiplier altogether, and buy something else, like timestop or haste whatever.

[AlisAtAn]

Yeah, I know that... but improved crit isnt in the Weapons of Legacy book. So it would have to be a houserule... I`m asking what level of legacy (least, lesser, greater) it would be, as well as how many levels of that I would have to spend. Sorry if I was unclear.

Can we use other spells and metamagic feats than those described in WoP? For instance, could I swap empower for another metamagic feat with a 2lvl adjustment? Or Blur. You can get it as a constant effect on your legacy item. Could I instead take another personal spell with the same or higher duration instead?

I have no idea whatsoever how my melee attacks work out. You said in the original thread that I could have these attacks:

1-5: claw
6-10: two claw
11-15: bite or gore
16-20: other bite or gore

For one, I`m not sure how that affects my number of attacks per round. Far as I can see, the claw`s would be unusable if I`m wielding my kukri, and the gore only works on a charge. That leaves 1 bite attack. Any chance of me just choosing the natural weapons myself? That way I can accomodate for things like having my hands full, growing horns IF I decide to charge, etc etc...

I`m wielding 2 kukri, with the TWF feat.

[Omen of Peace]

@Fil: how will Counter Charge (a Setting Sun counter) work with your system ? Its only purpose is to deny an opponent a certain action, and you seemed to say that wasn't allowed (no interference if it's posted, only punishment).

[DaveTheMagicWeasel]

Double post!


<mean dm rand>
I"m ready to go, but I dom't know what the hold up is.
I'm starting on Sunday.  IF you don't have your build finalized and on the comparing the builds wiki by Sunday, you are being left behind, I'll run talman and elia as a duet since they are both well balanced.
</mean dm rant>

get er done!

I'm doing it today.  Should be ready to go on Sunday...

@Fil: how will Counter Charge (a Setting Sun counter) work with your system ? Its only purpose is to deny an opponent a certain action, and you seemed to say that wasn't allowed (no interference if it's posted, only punishment).

Imo:

1. Fil declares "hideous slavering monster charges, hits for 7 million damage"

2. You respond with "I use Counter Charge, Str/Dex check 78, if that succeeds then there is no attack, I redirect him to square A4, and then full-attack him.  If it fails, then I'm down for the count."

3. Fil's next post describes how you ducked beneath the slavering monster's swing before attacking it, and relates how the monster grabs you in his claws and extends his jaw to swallow your impertinent ass whole.

Afaic counters work perfectly fine with this system - e.g. Owain was using Wall of Blades quite a lot - it's actions that interrupt the normal sequence of events - AoO trips/Stand Still, Celerity/Anticipatory Strike to take actions out of turn, etc - that need to be ruled out.

[DaveTheMagicWeasel]

Right then, Owain's Character Sheet is basically done.  And I've put him on the compare the builds page.  So, pretty much ready to go (I might bring the Conjurer dip back for TFS 5 tho - Benign Transposition wand use/spells, Abrupt Jaunt, and Fighter bonus feat is hard to lose).

Main things that spring out at me are:
- slightly below the curve on survivability (one of the lower ACs, and lacks the DR/fast healing most of the party has).
- our to-hit rolls are pretty much spot on so far .
- above the curve in terms of damage dealing, especially considering Stormguard isn't factored into the numbers.

Also, as a party, we're a bit lacking in knowledge skills.

Owain also has a few weaknesses that leap out at me:
1. no way to damage swarms
2. no way to see/detect invisible
3. less effective (tho far from useless) against crit/sneak attack immunes
4. screwed if someone has Anticipate Teleportation up

#2 is the big concern afaic ... anyone got any suggestions?  I've currently got the Clarity of Vision skill trick for 1 round see invisible, but that's unlikely to be enough.



(Hopefully final) questions for fil:

1. Is there any chance I would be allowed to tinker with the TFS spell list?  Specifically, I think the spell from Lords of Madness for Immediate Action incorporeal would fit Owain's "ghost-touched" status very well, and Benign Transposition fits the TFS modus operandi imho (which would then lead to having a Wand of it in one of my swords...)

2. Am I right on assuming that Radical Psi/Spell transparency applies to all the Sanctified Mind class features?  I.e. Disrupting Blow prohibits use of both spells & powers, Cleansing Strike can be used on any psi- or spell- using creature, and Power Resistance applies to both right?

3. Can I swap Force Screen onto the Conflict Mantle?  Imo it fits (since Conflict is such a loose concept), and it'd get my AC up to the same level as the rest of the party.  I'd remove Hustle from Powers Known to fit it in if okayed.

4. Would a Monk's Belt stack with Swordsage?  Not sure I can afford it (trying to find the money for Deadly Precision on my off-hand sword is proving hard enough), but just for future reference.

5. My equipment includes a lot of combined items, paying +50% premium (denoted by x1.5 in brackets), and also includes changing the Mantle of the Predator (MIC) from Shoulders to Torso (shoulders is taken up by my Phase Cloak Bind).  Is all that okay?

6. What I would really like is some kind of at-will "fade into shadows" ability.  The Shadowcraft Mage's Cloak of Shadows ability is actually perfect for what I envisage (especially when it's combined with the TFS abilities and the Ring of the Darkhidden).  Is there any chance I could get that ability as a magic item?  If so, how would you price it?

Question for AlisAtAn

1. Are you willing to enchant me an item with a Deeper Darkness spell?  It's a 3rd level Cleric spell that lasts 1 day/level, so you'd only need a slot every 18 days (i.e. whenever we have a rest day).  With all my darkness abilities it would be very useful to have such an item in my pocket/in a glove of storing ready to whip it out when needed.

Anyway, it's late (5 am here), so I'm going to bed.

[AlisAtAn]

Well if you`re playing around with Legacy weapons, you can have a constant see invisibility effect quite cheap. Or 1\day even cheaper.

Hmm. 6am here and I wont be going to bed for a few hours yet. 

[DaveTheMagicWeasel]

Well if you`re playing around with Legacy weapons, you can have a constant see invisibility effect quite cheap. Or 1\day even cheaper.

Hmm. 6am here and I wont be going to bed for a few hours yet. 

Fil normally uses legacy items as a boost to any weaker party members.  I'm not sure I qualify as such.

How about it oh wonderful and handsome DM?

(PS - I did some editing aimed at you alis)

[AlisAtAn]

Question for AlisAtAn

1. Are you willing to enchant me an item with a Deeper Darkness spell?  It's a 3rd level Cleric spell that lasts 1 day/level, so you'd only need a slot every 18 days (i.e. whenever we have a rest day).  With all my darkness abilities it would be very useful to have such an item in my pocket/in a glove of storing ready to whip it out when needed.

Sure. With Extend as my floating feat for a few hours that day it would last you 36 days. Or my lesser rod for that matter.

Will there be any chaining of Greater Magic Fang? I`m working out Sherman`s attacks, and a +4 to attack and damage wouldnt hurt...

[DaveTheMagicWeasel]

Ah crap - I forgot to pay the 3.5k for the rod.

Hmmm... so are we chaining Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mage Armour and Greater Magic Fang then?

If so, do I need to buy you a Pearl of Power for the GMA?  Because if I don't that will very nicely make room for my part of the rod, and to add Deadly Precision to my off-hand sword.

And while I'd say you and Sherman are the priority, if there's a spare chain or two left over I wouldn't be adverse to getting GMF on my bite attack.

One more question for fil:

7. The Garb of the Hunting Cat item set (MIC) gives a benefit if you have 2 items - rend if you hit with both claw gloves.  Now, I've got two items (Mask and Mantle), but not the claw gloves.  So, can I swap the 2 piece benefit with the 3 piece benefit (invisibility 1/day - hardly broken imo)?  Coz it annoys me that they make the 2 piece benefit dependent on an item you don't necessarily have.

(Or if you wanted to give me rend with my short swords I wouldn't complain)

[Omen of Peace]

@Alis: you probably missed it, but I asked you a while ago if you could spare a 1st level slot for Mage Armor ? I can give you a Pearl of Power I in exchange (you'll get one less spell at the beginning of the day but you'll get to recast one). Dave, perhaps simple MA would be ok for you ?

In the Comparison page, Sherman's damage is 1d8+61d8+121d6+61d6+61d4+61d4+6
I admit to being intimidated by the 121d6 ?!

I think we're chaining GMW and GMF. We don't have a 3rd spell now - GMA can't be chained as-is and Avalon hasn't been around to write up his spell list. Assuming Talman is the one casting GMF it will at CL 14 or less (11 ?) so it will be a +3 (+2) enhancement on natural attacks.
I'd like GMF on Elia's bite too if possible.

@Dave: Elia will often have a zone of Darkness around her while in hostile territory - you can use that if you don't find another way. I think I'll keep it at a 5ft radius at most times since the 3 others don't have See in Darkness. (Nevermind: Alis is saving the day !)

I'm going to make a fairly radical suggestion that you should of course feel free to ignore if it doesn't suit you: why not drop Stormguard Warrior ? I think you can still be the main damage dealer with your 3 SP full-attacks and it will keep the numbers down (SW seems more reasonable with only 1 full-attack - or 2 f-a from time to time like with the classical Time Stands Still combo). You can use the levels and feats saved to shore up what you feel your weaknesses are and/or get other fun abilities.

The Dragon Mask (MIC) is pretty good for your #2 weakness. An arcanist packing Glitterdust and/or a druid Faerie Fire will help too.

Thanks for your thoughts on Counter Charge - I'll still wait to hear Fil's confirmation since it doesn't seem that different from Stand Still-ing an attacker.

edit: also, I didn't know we could use masterwork tools liberally. I'll add some - though not for Knowledge skills since I've never been able to figure out a tool that could be used in the middle of combat for those. 

[AlisAtAn]

@Alis: you probably missed it, but I asked you a while ago if you could spare a 1st level slot for Mage Armor ? I can give you a Pearl of Power I in exchange (you'll get one less spell at the beginning of the day but you'll get to recast one). Dave, perhaps simple MA would be ok for you ?

Sure, I could squeeze in that... Regarding the PoP, if you got 1k to spare, it wouldnt hurt. But I can make do without.

In the Comparison page, Sherman's damage is 1d8+61d8+121d6+61d6+61d4+61d4+6
I admit to being intimidated by the 121d6 ?!

I missed that. The wiki keeps removing my / when I save my changes.

I think we're chaining GMW and GMF. We don't have a 3rd spell now - GMA can't be chained as-is and Avalon hasn't been around to write up his spell list. Assuming Talman is the one casting GMF it will at CL 14 or less (11 ?) so it will be a +3 (+2) enhancement on natural attacks.
I'd like GMF on Elia's bite too if possible.

Well, I`m doing GMW. Not sure what the conclusion was on GMF from Talman...

edit: also, I didn't know we could use masterwork tools liberally. I'll add some - though not for Knowledge skills since I've never been able to figure out a tool that could be used in the middle of combat for those. 

A dusted, old, encyclopedia you stole from some tomb?? The geeks in adventure movies do that all the time.

If so, do I need to buy you a Pearl of Power for the GMA?  Because if I don't that will very nicely make room for my part of the rod, and to add Deadly Precision to my off-hand sword.

And while I'd say you and Sherman are the priority, if there's a spare chain or two left over I wouldn't be adverse to getting GMF on my bite attack.

I dont have any spare 3rd lvl slots, no... But if you and Omen pay 500gp each for a PoP, you both reap the benefits of a Mage Armor. Seems fair to me.

[fil kearney]

I`m asking what level of legacy (least, lesser, greater) it would be, as well as how many levels of that I would have to spend. Sorry if I was unclear.

no worries
crit multiplier is a "G" clas feature available starting level 17. it stacks.

Can we use other spells and metamagic feats than those described in WoP? For instance, could I swap empower for another metamagic feat with a 2lvl adjustment? Or Blur. You can get it as a constant effect on your legacy item. Could I instead take another personal spell with the same or higher duration instead?

WoP? 
Yer obviously thinking of a specific spell and feat.. full disclosure makes better use of time.  Typically I'd say yes, but your being ambiguous, so what do you want to do?

I have no idea whatsoever how my melee attacks work out. You said in the original thread that I could have these attacks:

1-5: claw
6-10: two claw
11-15: bite or gore
16-20: other bite or gore

For one, I`m not sure how that affects my number of attacks per round. Far as I can see, the claw`s would be unusable if I`m wielding my kukri, and the gore only works on a charge. That leaves 1 bite attack. Any chance of me just choosing the natural weapons myself? That way I can accomodate for things like having my hands full, growing horns IF I decide to charge, etc etc...

I`m wielding 2 kukri, with the TWF feat.

Okay: at level 11-15 you can have 3 natural attacks, 2 of which are claw.  if you are holding a weapon, you are not able to make claw attacks with that hand.
gor ewill nto require a charge, so it becomes a matter of taste right now... do you want to bite, or stab folks with horns?  at level 16 you can do both.
I am SPECIFICALLY dictating what natural attacks you can sprout when because that is forcing you to decide how you want to perform in combat. 
If you are using kukri, you can't use claw. Since you have sherman, you don't need more attacks per round to remain balanced.

SO, If you are using your kukri, then you will have an attack swquence as such:
primary kukri: 11/6/6
secondary kukri: 11
bite/gore 11
(not including all the bonuses and twf penalty)

IF you are not using kukri, and only natural weapons:
primary claw: 11/6/6
secondary claw: 11
bite/gore: 11
(not including bonuses)
by using multiattack as a floating feat, your natural attack sequence would be:
Primary claw: 11/9/9
secondary claw: 9
bite/gore: 9

and next level if you are using both twf and multiweapon active:
primary kukri 11/6/6
secondary claw: 9  OR econdary kukri 6
bite:9
(assuming bab does not improve)

[AlisAtAn]

Weapons of Legacy. No idea how I turned that into WoP. I was thinking about Split Ray and Heroics. But I might just use 1 kukri and 1 claw. The penalties for using two legacies hurt...

[fil kearney]

@Fil: how will Counter Charge (a Setting Sun counter) work with your system ? Its only purpose is to deny an opponent a certain action, and you seemed to say that wasn't allowed (no interference if it's posted, only punishment).

dave is absolutely right.
counters are just fime in most cases (just make sure I"m alerted you are using them of course)
interrupts are stacked on as retribution before your normal round, just like aoo's.  
How dave described it is dead on target-- you will know the outcome at the beginning of NC's turn whether you are dead or successful.

[fil kearney]

al: go with kukri + claw for now.  we can stack a new legacy on in epic if you wish.

errr.... dave's response is gonna take a while...

[fil kearney]

1. Is there any chance I would be allowed to tinker with the TFS spell list?  Specifically, I think the spell from Lords of Madness for Immediate Action incorporeal would fit Owain's "ghost-touched" status very well, and Benign Transposition fits the TFS modus operandi imho (which would then lead to having a Wand of it in one of my swords...)

i'd allow you to swap out one spell per feat spent.  in epic levels i'd allow more liberal tinkering.
so you can either:
1. buy the wand and just UMD for the next 6 levels
2. blow feats tot get the spells you want and make that wand easier
3. slap a level of conjurer in there next level and swap it out later if you want.

2. Am I right on assuming that Radical Psi/Spell transparency applies to all the Sanctified Mind class features?  I.e. Disrupting Blow prohibits use of both spells & powers, Cleansing Strike can be used on any psi- or spell- using creature, and Power Resistance applies to both right?

correct.  150% transparency.

3. Can I swap Force Screen onto the Conflict Mantle?  Imo it fits (since Conflict is such a loose concept), and it'd get my AC up to the same level as the rest of the party.  I'd remove Hustle from Powers Known to fit it in if okayed.

that's fine

4. Would a Monk's Belt stack with Swordsage?  Not sure I can afford it (trying to find the money for Deadly Precision on my off-hand sword is proving hard enough), but just for future reference.

i have no issue with that so llong as we keep balance amongst ourselves.

5. My equipment includes a lot of combined items, paying +50% premium (denoted by x1.5 in brackets), and also includes changing the Mantle of the Predator (MIC) from Shoulders to Torso (shoulders is taken up by my Phase Cloak Bind).  Is all that okay?

changing slots is no issue at all.
an item pays the extra as per DMG if not taking extra slots: if you want to pay normal price, have the added ability take another slot elsewhere.  like, a monk's belt of ogre power would be normal price for both items, and take up, say, the belt and hat slots.
you're call, just notate as you do. (thanks to everyone for being so great at referencing and making notes)

6. What I would really like is some kind of at-will "fade into shadows" ability.  The Shadowcraft Mage's Cloak of Shadows ability is actually perfect for what I envisage (especially when it's combined with the TFS abilities and the Ring of the Darkhidden).  Is there any chance I could get that ability as a magic item?  If so, how would you price it?

you can research that as a permanent effect in epic.

7. The Garb of the Hunting Cat item set (MIC) gives a benefit if you have 2 items - rend if you hit with both claw gloves.  Now, I've got two items (Mask and Mantle), but not the claw gloves.  So, can I swap the 2 piece benefit with the 3 piece benefit (invisibility 1/day - hardly broken imo)?  Coz it annoys me that they make the 2 piece benefit dependent on an item you don't necessarily have.

mantle +1 item = invisible
claws +1 item = rend

Well if you`re playing around with Legacy weapons, you can have a constant see invisibility effect quite cheap. Or 1\day even cheaper.

this is a better solution imo, i'd make you ding to hit bonus to balance pouncing.

[AlisAtAn]

So is Heroics instead of Blur okay? And Split Ray instead of Empower?

[DaveTheMagicWeasel]

@Alis: you probably missed it, but I asked you a while ago if you could spare a 1st level slot for Mage Armor ? I can give you a Pearl of Power I in exchange (you'll get one less spell at the beginning of the day but you'll get to recast one). Dave, perhaps simple MA would be ok for you?

It would, it's just I'd like as much AC as possible is all!

In the Comparison page, Sherman's damage is 1d8+61d8+121d6+61d6+61d4+61d4+6
I admit to being intimidated by the 121d6 ?!

I just assumed it was a typo!

Oh lord, it's not Venomfire abuse is it?

I'm going to make a fairly radical suggestion that you should of course feel free to ignore if it doesn't suit you: why not drop Stormguard Warrior ? I think you can still be the main damage dealer with your 3 SP full-attacks and it will keep the numbers down (SW seems more reasonable with only 1 full-attack - or 2 f-a from time to time like with the classical Time Stands Still combo). You can use the levels and feats saved to shore up what you feel your weaknesses are and/or get other fun abilities.

Hmmmm...

You see, when I first built Owain my mechanical idea was basically Stormguard + Shadow Pounce.  But since he didn't have SP yet in his previous incarnation I've yet to actually try it out.  So part of me wants to do it at least once.

But, admittedly, freeing up 5 feats (Combat Reflexes, Ironheart Aura, Stormguard, Spectral Skirmisher & Robilars) does have something going for it.

And if I put the Wizard dip back in that makes 6 feats.  Probably best I can think of:
- Elusive Target
- Combat Focus
- Combat Defence
- Combat Vigor
- Combat Awareness
- Greater TWF

Tho I'm not sure that the Combat Defence + Elusive Target would survive contact with fil's immediate action rules.

As for levels, the only thing I'm spending on Stormguard is the 3 Ranger levels to get IH maneuvers.  Losing them loses me 3 feats, as well as Wall of Blades and IHS.

Getting the maneuvers back with feat + item, and then replacing the 3 lost feats only gives me 2 feats to play with.  Not sure what I'd choose in that case, and not sure what levels I'd take in their place tbh.

If people think I'm unbalanced I'm willing to drop Stormguard, but I can't really think of anything to replace it with.

EDIT-
- Practiced Manifester
- Expanded Knowledge (Schism)
- Greater TWF
- 3 more...?  Possibly use them to cover the cost of losing Ranger levels and change to Ranger 1 / Eternal Blade 2 for Guided Strike.  I would take Undo Resistance (FC2), but in a low caster game I think it'd be a waste.

Any better ideas?

The Dragon Mask (MIC) is pretty good for your #2 weakness. An arcanist packing Glitterdust and/or a druid Faerie Fire will help too.

Yeah, it's affording it that's the problem tho.

Re fil's post (aargh! too many posts!)

Okay, moving items to my empty slots will save me a few grand.  Which will help.  I'm gonna drop TFS 5 (since I lack the Int to cast any 3rd level spells) and replace it with Conjurer 1 - which gets me Benign Transposition from a wand.

For the legacy, table 4-2 for penalties?

I'll think about it, I've never been entirely convinced that the things aren't a rip-off.

[AlisAtAn]

FYI I updated the comparison page for Sherman. Wiki removed my slashes and bundled it all together when I saved.

[Omen of Peace]

Yeah, I also guessed it was a typo - I just couldn't guess what the real thing was.

@Dave: I have no problem with you trying it out since that's what you were aiming for. We can judge then if it's unbalanced - the numbers seem to indicate it might be.
If you decide to drop it later, Combat Reflexes + Robilar can still be good to deal more damage and/or dissuade enemies from attacking you.
Level-wise, there's always Slayer. You already have the prereqs (Track) I think.
edit: you could even make whatever-the-type-of-the-Minotaur-that-killed-Owain Owain's favored enemy.

Maybe I should shut up we should start and worry about it later. Fil ?

I started to work on raising my Fort and Will saves and perhaps lower my attacks just a bit (the current numbers don't account for GMW).