Out of Character -- Technical Discussion

[AlisAtAn]

Nono. He wouldnt do that. He`s the DM. No worries. 

Fil: How shall I go forward when making my spellbooks for chameleon? I was thinking one archivist list and one wizard. That should cover most of what I want. It costs XP to write spells to a spellbook, how does that affect my level? Can I assume I stole one, like the fluff of chameleon says?

[fil kearney]

On that note, I'm still waiting for a group decision on what feat is up for grabs via special challenge this level.  You will start in the middle of it.


Re: Grafts...

Bracers of armour +5: 25k gold
Graft: 11,000gp.
It grants +5ac, DR 2\adamantine, light fortification (I already have full from warshaper), -3 armor check penalty, 25% asf, and counts as medium armor for things like movement.

Yeah... big difference in cost there.  Pretty obvious graft = armour for class abilities... so the crunch is wrong for you. 
My recommendation is to make the bracers of armour metal skin, and burn an item slot.  (that slot can be "armour", BTW). the only worry is a dispel.  happens on occasion, but we should still see what the team weighs out as together for final bonuses. 

re: "rests" between battles: yes.  5 minutes recharge.  I have also ruled any 6 hour rest period is considered "a day of rest".  so you can recharge dailies quicker too... no sense sittin on your ass 23 hours after an hour of raiding a fort.

[Omen of Peace]

Good news voice: the Chameleon doesn't need a spellbook for divine spells. You prepare them like a Cleric, i.e. you pull them out of thin air.
For the arcane spellbook, most DMs I've played with use the copying option, i.e. you pay 50gp x spell level to get it from someone else's spellbook. Then you have the ink cost... which you avoid by buying an Aureon Spellshard (6.25k, ECS).

Stealing a wizard's spellbook is a fun but risky option. You wouldn't get spells from exotic lists (Bard, Trapsmith) either.


For the feat: if we go for a feat useful for prereqs, I nominate Iron Will like I said before. I think it's the feat used the most as a prereq. Improved Toughness is a possibility but it's a bit dull. There's Dodge, but we who need it have it already.
For sneakiness, I could see Swift and Silent (PGtF 45) too.

[DaveTheMagicWeasel]

You know what, +1 on Swift and Silent - stealthily working as a team on a challenge.

I've still gotta pick equipment and maneuvers.  Not sure if I'll get chance tomorrow, but should do over the weekend.

[AlisAtAn]

I`m with Omen for Iron Will. Its not a waste for anyone, some extra saves are *always* useful. Personally I have most of the feats I need. But how about a Skillfocus with individual choice of skill? I need it for prereq, granted. But anyone could use a skillfocus on something... Not entirely wasted. Things like Endurance never gets to see use. So its a waste.

Regarding the skin fix, I dont have that much cash left. Maybe later. AC isnt my biggest concern anyway. ...What is, though? Ranged, perhaps.  

Does inherent bonuses stack up to +5? For instance, 5 tomes of int +1 costs the same as one that grants a +5. End result is the same.

[fil kearney]

Alis:  technically you need to read a +2 book to get the +2 bonus, but with retraining, you can just "upgrade" for the difference.  +1 for now, +1 (total cost +2) next etc. as you can afford it. 

If chameleon isn't automatically awarded spells per level as a wizard is, he's gonna have to acquire a book, and each acquired spells cost money as detailed by omen.(thanks). We hae a set amount of wealth (a resource) that can be converted to additional spells (a resource) at will.  when you acquire a PHAT spell book, you do not automatically get them or even burn them like a scroll.  if you want to use/own them, it will cost money. 

Clerics are the most broken piece of shit ever... but I'm not here to "fix" the imbalance.  I only rarely snap people for "pissing their god off".  Only if you are doing some blatant BS is there any risk at all of losing the cleric spell resource.  stuff lke "moradin sux" when you are a dwarf cleric of moradin = temp ban.  Obvious things.  "I shouldn't do that" = possible temp ban.  Normally a non issue to folks that follow an ideal, or to cheaters like the chameleon... see the wiki link "how magic works..." or whatever for more info.

RE feats... I plan to work one in each level.  even if it's a feat everyone gots, it becomes a FREE feat everyone gots. = team net gain. 
Everyone gains the SAME EXACT FEAT.  like skill focus: basketweaving.  you earn it, whether it matters to you or not.  you can decline the feat if needed, but they cannot be retrained.

[AlisAtAn]

But if you already have the feat, can you get it twice and retrain the original one into something else?

Hmmm. I guess I`ll do Archivist spells from chameleon, and wizardry from factotum then. Saves me a wad of cash on the spellbook.

when you acquire a PHAT spell book, you do not automatically get them or even burn them like a scroll.  if you want to use/own them, it will cost money. 

Meaning I cant steal a spellbook, because I still have to pay for the spells? Hrrmm.

[Omen of Peace]

Apologies: I have to change my vote to Skill Focus: Basketweaving - I forgot about it. We can take over Droaam after we get rich selling wonderful baskets. Imagine the great RP !

Alis, do you have enough Wisdom for the divine spells ? You only need 16 but I thought you wanted to dump it.
edit: I'd totally help you steal a spellbook. And then we'd get our ass kicked. (I assume you want the spellbook of a reasonably high-level mage. )

[AlisAtAn]

Apologies: I have to change my vote to Skill Focus: Basketweaving - I forgot about it. We can take over Droaam after we get rich selling wonderful baskets.

That kinda sounds like something you would hear in a DnD game where mind-controlling parasites are taking over the world. Or something like that. Then again I should shut up about my own ponderings most of the time.

[fil kearney]

But if you already have the feat, can you get it twice and retrain the original one into something else?

Hmmm. I guess I`ll do Archivist spells from chameleon, and wizardry from factotum then. Saves me a wad of cash on the spellbook.


Meaning I cant steal a spellbook, because I still have to pay for the spells? Hrrmm.

You can steal anything you want... but since technically you can have anything you want, outside of flavor, there is no need to steal a spellbook unless there is specific in-game objectives you want to achieve. 




Hmmm... Okay.
This is something I hadn't considered before because of the wealth system we are using (WBL supermarket), but casters need spells, yet the telescoping spell list pisses me off. 
(some of you may not like this... if we as a team do NOT like the idea, then I will drop it.. if I wanted to do this, I should havve spelled it out before we began play.  )
I'm considering limiting spell access to SRD + 2(a la omen) non SRD spell per spell level available (an 11th level wizard, for example, will have all srd available as usual, plus 6 spells of any level 0-6... due to retraining they can all be 6th if you want) anything beyond those 6 spells have to be researched and paid for.  You can steal non- standard spells to nix the researching process... still gotta pay for them.
This will resolve that "infinite spell list" issue that has been sticking in my craw, and make stealing spell/prayer books/meditation crystals, etc a worthwhile endeavor.

I would also like to change the cleric and druid spells per level to those of the favored soul.  Ditch FS as a class, and keep everything about druid/cleric the same.. except the spells per level will be limited to "known" like a FS (plus the domain spell and spontaneous "cure/cause" option)
These are things I've contemplated for months, but quite frankly, this conversation brought that back to me.

I admit, this is out of the blue, and most folks don't appreciate their spell list and cleric/druid class getting tromped on...
but none of you are at all dependant on spell casting... so I think this is a great place to insert this change. 
I am attempting to put a set of houserules together that makes spell casters "another choice" instead of "the only choice" at higher levels... and still allow a lot of diversity and fun.

Feedback welcome, since I'm rocking your boat.  Are you willing to give it a test?

[Omen of Peace]

First, Elia's not a caster so the change have little effect on her.

I like the general gist but not all the details: for instance, 1 spell/spell level seems low. I'd give 2 spells/s.l. and perhaps not allow the "retraining" (I thought we were supposed to qualify for things as if we had taken them at that level ? Not that I prefer this way).
I may have more comments later...

[fil kearney]

I am not going to force taht change on anyone... no one signed up for that in the beginning, and I don't want ot be a douche... sorry  about that.

I have another idea though...

[Avalon®]

fil,

Does that restriction apply only to prepared casters or does that also include spontaneous ones like Maraxus?

[fil kearney]

Full 9th level casting classes like druid, cleric,wizard, sorceror. 
I think bard is limited enough with their progression that you should be fine
sublime chord levels will have the same restrictions as sorceror does, though.


I got a zanier idea on the way though...

[amalcon]

I would also like to change the cleric and druid spells per level to those of the favored soul.  Ditch FS as a class, and keep everything about druid/cleric the same.. except the spells per level will be limited to "known" like a FS (plus the domain spell and spontaneous "cure/cause" option)
These are things I've contemplated for months, but quite frankly, this conversation brought that back to me.

The idea doesn't bother me that much, but the implementation is perhaps a touch too limited.  Being tied to Sorcerer-ish numbers of spells is bad enough when you cast them spontaneously.  Still, I'd be willing to try it; it's not too objectionable.

One game I played in had divine casters modified such that they just had spellbooks (like a Wizard).  That worked pretty well, though "prayer book" fluff might need some tweaking.  Of course, that wasn't exactly a Magic-'Mart style campaign, so it might be less effective here.

As for the "outside core" spells, I like it.  The core spells are plenty to get by with for core classes (I'd probably say "the spells listed in the spell list in the book that printed the class", so that Wu-Jen et al would be playable); some of the other spells are cool, but they lead to a lot of power creep.

[fil kearney]

Here is the altenate idea...

<PLEASE NOTE, THIS HAS BEEN DECLINED, BUT READ IF YOU WANT>

http://co-gestalt-eberron.pbwiki.com/Alternate-Magic-Option

If we implemented this, I would remove the 6th level spell restriction for the sake of playtesting it throughly...

I believe I have successfully changed per day casting into the ToB maneuver readying mechanics... everything about the classes stay the same, but replace the spell chart with the modified maneuver known and readied tables linked here.

I am about 20 times more excited about this idea than limiting spelllevel or access... spontaneous casters  are truly capable of spamming destruction like they should, wizards still have their spell book aplenty, and divie caster still have domain spells, spontaneous cure/harm/ally spells, with an open list

Give it a look see, give me your thoughts... if we wnt with this, casters would have to reconsider what they are doing with their class levels, but I think this might actually work.

Otherwise, skip this and the following questions.

[Avalon®]

I'd like to have some more clarification especially on the Spontaneous Arcane casters and the Prestige Mini-casters before commenting more.

[Omen of Peace]

Some clarification would be helpful indeed. As it is:
- Spontaneous Arcane Caster: it's a shame to leave spontaneous metamagic behind. But none of us is playing one so it matters little. The Warblade recovery mechanic needs to be adapted since it's supposed to work with an attack or a full-attack. For a pure caster, that will mean actually using the "standard action to do nothing" option - barely better than Adaptive Style's full-round.

- are you aware of the CharOp thread about optimizing the arcane swordsage ? I didn't follow it too closely, but basically you can spam your best spells and keep recovering them in a Time Stop.

It has little influence on Elia so again it doesn't matter much to me. I'm ok with it but not especially excited. That may change as we playtest it. 

[Avalon®]

Omen, I think you forgot that Maraxus is a Bard and a Sublime Chord. Both of which are spontaneous arcane casters.

So this means that I need to learn more about fil's new system before I check out how it will impact my build.

[Omen of Peace]

I did realize that after the fact (I was coffee-less when I posted !) but I did not come back to edit it. I don't think you're going to use metamagic anytime soon, right ? The recovery still matters.

Another remark: I liked that the highest level spells were limited. Perhaps we can still only open level 7 at level 17+, level 8 at level 21+ and level 9 at level 25+ ? Or any such similar scheme.