Null Stats [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Kuroimaken]

*claps loudly* Focus, people. Here's a shiny object.

Now, let's see. What does giving undead a Con score really affects, when you pause to think about it? Nothing that a null Con score grants isn't provided by the undead type anyway. Part of our main problem stems from the fact that "undead" is a pretty darned wide cathegorization that includes both corporeal and incorporeal undead - so giving them Con scores results in massive HP inflation for ghost-like monsters.

So here's my solution: incorporeal undead default to Con 10. Corporeal undead are given Con scores depending on how tough they're supposed to be (and have their HD slashed accordingly). Melee undead often have really high Str scores anyway, or high Dex and Weapon Finesse.

Constructs are relatively tougher to call, but perhaps we can use what I call the "effigy solution": grant extra HP based on size.

[JaronK]

Great, so the plan is to increase their hitpoints by giving them con scores and then decrease their hit dice to fix the damage done.

Now, decreasing hit dice also lowers saves, BAB and the save DCs of many special abilities, which has a big effect on CR.  How do you plan to change that... go through every monster and edit the CR?  And what do you do about the fact that you just completely changed Turn/Rebuke undead, which is based on undead hitdice? 

Seriously, this change throws a HECK of a lot of balance out of wack, and requires a huge amount of work to do all the necessary recalibration, and I'm still not seeing why it's actually necessary.  All we've got is "it's weird and it makes a few monsters into special cases" but that's not a balance issue.  Altering the save DCs of every undead creature out there and making Turn/Rebuke undead FAR more effective, however, is a very serious balance issue.

So yeah, let's FOCUS people... on balance.  Balance is our shiney object.  No change should be made if it destroys balance.

JaronK

[Kuroimaken]

Well, that's not necessarily the direction I was going with it, but the point is the same. The problem with HD inflation is that you end up with WAY too many HP, DCs out of whack, and all that comes with it. So either we pick the lesser of two evils or rework the whole thing. Also, Turn/Rebuke Undead needs a rework as is anyway.

[JaronK]

But wait, if those are the problems, how does this help?  If HP inflation is bad (I'm not sure why, I happen to like zombies being weak creatures that just won't die due to too many hitpoints) then how does removing some HD and then adding more con bonus, resulting in the same HP, help?  And are the save DCs really too high?  I've never noticed anything of the sort.

Let's identify the exact problem that needs fixing here... so far, I haven't actually seen one, certainly not one related to balance.

JaronK

[Callix]

But wait, if those are the problems, how does this help?  If HP inflation is bad (I'm not sure why, I happen to like zombies being weak creatures that just won't die due to too many hitpoints) then how does removing some HD and then adding more con bonus, resulting in the same HP, help?  And are the save DCs really too high?  I've never noticed anything of the sort.

Let's identify the exact problem that needs fixing here... so far, I haven't actually seen one, certainly not one related to balance.

JaronK

One of the problems with undead is that their HD scale so rapidly that any HD-based effect the PC's might have (Turn/Rebuke, Raise Dead, Command Undead, fear effects, etc) have little to no effect past about level 3. If their HD didn't scale so dramatically, then we wouldn't unbalance the ones that have other uses by fixing them.

[Kuroimaken]

Barring lots of Turn Undead optimization, of course.

[Midnight_v]

But wait, if those are the problems, how does this help?  If HP inflation is bad (I'm not sure why, I happen to like zombies being weak creatures that just won't die due to too many hitpoints) then how does removing some HD and then adding more con bonus, resulting in the same HP, help?  And are the save DCs really too high?  I've never noticed anything of the sort.

Let's identify the exact problem that needs fixing here... so far, I haven't actually seen one, certainly not one related to balance.

JaronK

One of the problems with undead is that their HD scale so rapidly that any HD-based effect the PC's might have (Turn/Rebuke, Raise Dead, Command Undead, fear effects, etc) have little to no effect past about level 3. If their HD didn't scale so dramatically, then we wouldn't unbalance the ones that have other uses by fixing them.

Wow it ate my post. . . 

Short version.
Taking control of undead / destroying undead, should req a good amont of investiture. Changing the dynamic to not be hit dice based makes it easier overall.
This will add more win to 1. Cleric 2. Necromancers... both of whom already win at D&D
You don't want to make it easier for them to turn/rebuke or control undead.

This thread is a clever misdirection.

Why? Changing null stats leads to a full-game rewrite.

1st. Null stats aren't actually a problem.
2nd. Changing them Requires that you change how Turn undead works.
3. That requires changing how, many creatures are Cr'd into the game.
4. You also have to re-write Every Level Dependant effect in general because null stat creatures are a signifigant portion of the monster population in many games.

Sinister....you are very, very slick. Getting people to do the research for you. LOL

There is no problem with null stats. You've phrased it in a way that lead us to believe that its broken, but....
That is  one of the things that actually "WORKS" barring TO. In which case we break everything.

[JaronK]

One of the problems with undead is that their HD scale so rapidly that any HD-based effect the PC's might have (Turn/Rebuke, Raise Dead, Command Undead, fear effects, etc) have little to no effect past about level 3. If their HD didn't scale so dramatically, then we wouldn't unbalance the ones that have other uses by fixing them.

As someone who plays a Dread Necromancer regularly, I can assure you that even currently it's not a problem if you put even a little effort into it.  I can certainly make good use of rebuke undead at level 10, mostly through use of Turn Resistance lowering items (Rod of Defiance, Lyre of the Restful Soul).  Those two items alone are enough to allow you to successfully control a 13 HD undead creature with Rebuke Undead, which at level 10 is quite handy, especially since some undead are decent for their HD (Bone Creatures, Necropolitans).  Altering undead HD would have drastic effects, one of which is that the current Rebuke Undead system would be far easier to break (right now it takes a lot of work and requires the DM to help you).  Animate Dead and Plague of Undead would also be seriously effected.

So yes, you would absolutely unbalance Rebuke Undead.  Rebuke Undead requires some work to optimize, but it's not all that hard if you look into it, and a wide scale decrease in undead HP without significant CR changes would power that up to impressive levels.

Furthermore, I should remind everyone that undead can already get massive bonuses to their hp/HD ratio, via effects like Desecrate, Corsecrafter, and Dread Necromancer special abilities.  I can easily get undead that have D12+6 HP/HD, and now what's being suggested is that I could add con to that too.  That's getting a bit much. 

But really, does anyone here feel that undead are really unbalanced?  Because this isn't sounding like a balance issue, just a "I want the rules to work differently" issue.  It doesn't even simplify anything.

JaronK

[Kuroimaken]

To be frank, I was just trying to help. This is a DM issue, and I don't DM.

But you gotta hand it that null stats make for some very weird situations sometimes.

[JaronK]

Like what?  I've never run into any real issues... and I play necromancers all the time (occasionally Necropolitan Necromancers).  Most of the time, the creatures involved are immune to whatever might use the stat, and when they're not you simply use no modifier.  The only issue I've seen is ethereal creatures gaining the ability to manipulate objects, thus causing some questions of how much they can lift to come up, but that's it... and since usually it's just one sword or something, that's not a problem either.  So really... what are these issues that we're solving?  I haven't actually seen any brought up.  It's always critical to establish what the problem is before proposing solutions, and right now I think what we're seeing is a solution being brought up for non existant problems.

This isn't being put up as a DM issue, but rather as a rebalancing issue... yet I've seen nothing unbalanced being fixed and LOTS of things being made unbalanced as a result of the fix... basically, this is fixing something until it's broken.

JaronK

[veekie]

Um, the basic application of adding Con back doesn't require an immediate change, everything gets Con 10, until the rebalancing folks can get to them and adjust their HD/Con ratio to make more sense. Problem is undead having crazy numbers of HD for their CR and throwing off the HD based effects.

Besides, the cleric's overpoweredness doesn't stem from the turning, it's like all the other full caster classes, the spells make it happen. Turning/Rebuking needs it's own seperate fix, it's no good unless you optimise for it, which is to me a sign of something wrong.

[JaronK]

But why do undead need a con score?  Having lots of HD isn't a bad thing... isn't the idea that undead are just generally tough, so having more HD with a low BAB (and thus having better saves and being more resistant to HD based effects) is exactly how it's supposed to be?

Seriously... what exactly needs fixing?  We keep hearing solutions without establishing a problem.  I don't see "zombies are hard to kill with traditional methods" as a problem, when that's kind of part of the zombie mythos.

And, by the way, Rebuking is still useful even without optimizing it if you get utility undead instead of combat undead.  Things like Slaymates and Ghostly Visages, for example, are very useful despite their very low HD.  Remember, a Ghostly Visage effectively gives you Mindblank, which in item form costs something like 100kgp.

JaronK

[SiggyDevil]

I vote for giving all Undead a CON score.

Anything corporeal and animate should have a CON score, default 10 as stated previously.

Core-wise nothing changes. The difference comes when that change is interacted with. Far less retrograde alterations on gamers' parts.

[JaronK]

Okay...

Why?  Why do undead need a con score? 

And how do you rebalance the fact that undead can now have their hitpoints increased, thus making Necromancers far more powerful?  What about the fact that Necropolitans are sudden FAR stronger? 

What balance is improved by undead having a con score?

JaronK

[Elennsar]

Why do undead need to be conless?

If they use a Constitution score like everyone else, a lot of the "add hit points to undead" can go away for Constitution 12+, and their HD can be at a level reasonable for turning and such.

[Mister_Sinister]

JaronK, at present, undead NEED to have twice the HD of everything else in order to even have APPROPRIATE hit points, much less good ones. The fact that undead actually cannot have hit points granted to them in an arbitrary way, whether that be Con score or whatever else (besides unholy toughness, which cannot be acquired by anyone, ever) means that undead HD are all over the damn show, which leads to craziness like the fact that undead can vary by like 10 HD and still be the same CR. This is silly.

[JaronK]

Why do undead need to be conless?

They don't need to.  However, they are balanced at being without con, so adding con alters balance heavily with widespread changes over the system. 

The status quo currently seems to work, and absolutely no one in this thread has indicated that there's actually a problem (only that undead have lots of HD for their CR, but that's true for animals too).  Thus, we're talking about making drastic changes to balance when there's nothing out of balance here anyway.

If they use a Constitution score like everyone else, a lot of the "add hit points to undead" can go away for Constitution 12+, and their HD can be at a level reasonable for turning and such.

Meaning Rebuke Undead becomes far more powerful, the listed CRs of all undead critters has to be gone over and changed, and so on.  Furthermore, you have to go over Corpsecrafter, Dread Necromancers, UA Varient Necromancers, Desecrate, and other effects, and change all of them to not work with undead that have a con of 12+ if you want to have those effects go away.  This creates a series of special cases, and you might miss some.

And once again, Animals also have huge HD for their CR.  Do they somehow need fixing too?

Seriously, point out the balance problem here, because I'm not seeing it.  Just "they have lots of HD" but there's no inhearent flaw in that.  I am certainly seeing a wide variety of balance problems being created with the given fixes, generally requiring either that Necromancers get a massive overhaul or that each individual undead get a massive overhaul... and again, I'm not seeing any actual positive as far as balance is concerned.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

Jaron: Undead HD have no relationship to the HD of any other monster of their CR, even on the off chance they relate to other undead.

They're grossly overHDed and under hit pointed. (is that a word in this sense? It is now.)

I don't think the game suffers from undead getting +X hit points in unhallowed areas.

Abilities that beef up undead? Well, how much of that is compensating for the fact that undead are, despite having a host of immunities (do they even have this? I may be getting D&D and Age of Wonders mixed up), they suck at resisting being hurt.

I'm not personally familiar enough to say exactly what needs to be changed and what's broken as is, but I know that undead do not work well as is.

[JaronK]

Jaron: Undead HD have no relationship to the HD of any other monster of their CR, even on the off chance they relate to other undead.

Not a balance issue, and we're trying to improve balance here.  Also, I'll say it again... Animals have similar CR to HD ratios.  Tyranosauri are 18HD, CR8, for example, while Mhorge has 14 HD and a CR of 8.  So your statement here is just plain false.  Some types have high CRs for their HD (Outsiders, Dragons) while others have low CRs for their HD (Animals, Undead).  There's nothing wrong with this that I can see, it just means that for a given CR, undead and animals will have fewer special abilities and be tougher while angels and the like will have more special abilities but be easier to kill.

They're grossly overHDed and under hit pointed. (is that a word in this sense? It is now.)

Still not a balance problem, and still not true compared to other types (animals being the most obvious... abberations tend to be like that too.  Check out the Phasm at 15 HD, 7 CR).  Now, some undead do have very high HD for their CR, most notably Zombies.  Others have pretty low CRs for their HD, such as Bone Creatures, Necropolitans, Mummies, Vampyres, and so on, which are comperable to Outsider CR to HD ratios.  Are you really trying to mess up tons of game balance just because Zombies are tougher to kill than other monsters of their CR?  Is that really a bad thing?  In fiction, that's exactly what Zombies and many other undead types are... shambling creatures with few attacks that are very tough to kill.

I don't think the game suffers from undead getting +X hit points in unhallowed areas.

Me either, so no balance problems.  But I was thinking of Desecrate, which permanently increases the HP of any undead created in the area.

Abilities that beef up undead? Well, how much of that is compensating for the fact that undead are, despite having a host of immunities (do they even have this? I may be getting D&D and Age of Wonders mixed up), they suck at resisting being hurt.

How do they suck at resisting being hurt?  They tend to have poor natural armour but decent saves for their CR (due to having high HD).  Also, tons of immunities (yes, they have tons).  Heck, undead are some of the most resistant and durable creatures out there, especially with all the various auto healing options for them (Black Sand, Necrosis Carnexes, etc).

I'm not personally familiar enough to say exactly what needs to be changed and what's broken as is, but I know that undead do not work well as is.

You have yet to state a single balance problem with them, unless you can demonstrate why having a high amount of HD for your CR is a balance problem.  And I am actually very familiar with them, as a necromancer player.

JaronK

[SiggyDevil]

Okay...

Why?  Why do undead need a con score? 

And how do you rebalance the fact that undead can now have their hitpoints increased, thus making Necromancers far more powerful?  What about the fact that Necropolitans are sudden FAR stronger? 

What balance is improved by undead having a con score?

JaronK

So that the transition from living to undead doesn't fuck with HP. PCs changing to zombies or vampires would keep their stats but tack on other changes.

That, and no more special Undead HD is needed just to keep up with level-appropriate HP. See stupid "Unearthly Grace" trait of many later 3.5 undead; it's not needed if one applies class levels rather than Undead HD.

In other words, what would it hurt to have nearly undead with default CON 10?