What can we learn from others? [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Elennsar]

http://www.frontiernet.net/~jamesstarlight/

Most of Starlight's work is on the second edition of the game, but there is a good deal that's well worth reading apart from that, and a 3e section.

I don't know if I agree we should adopt the way he suggests. I do strongly think we should read it over.

Anyone with other links from people who have general "reworked game" or "things we should look at" (even from entirely seperate systems, as long as they have good info on reworking or what to keep in mind), suggesting we use this new thread for it.

[Surgo]

Something that I'm sure a lot of people have been talking about: the Tomes (or Tome, as some people are starting to refer to the PDF).

Collectively: http://turing.bard.edu/~mk561/frank_k_0.5.1.pdf (this will soon become 0.6 when I get my machine working again)
Individually:
- Tome of Necromancy: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=34248
- Tome of Fiends: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828
- Dungeonomicon: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547
- Races of War: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33294
- Book of Gears (Incomplete): http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=35813

Basically 3.5 that has already been successfully rebalanced (albeit at a power level that appears to offend some people), by FrankTrollman and K. Sadly the last couple of tomes (Tome of Tiamat, Tome of Virtue) were never written. Which is a shame because they would have been awesome.

[Mister_Sinister]

I am a great admirer of Frank and K's theory, which is correct almost every time. While I don't agree with many of their solutions, I cannot claim that they do not work.

[Psychic Robot]

Same, Sir Sinister.  I dislike that they have pushed the game farther in the "rocket tag" direction, although I can certainly understand their reasoning for doing so.

[Mister_Sinister]

Same, Sir Sinister.  I dislike that they have pushed the game farther in the "rocket tag" direction, although I can certainly understand their reasoning for doing so.

I gets knightly title from you? Thank you

[Omen of Peace]

Same here. The "Wish economy" is a brilliant analysis, but I'd rather change things than see exactly how absurd they are.

I'll add the elephant in the room: Pathfinder. I gather many people around here dislike it, but it's a legitimate source of inspiration.

[Mister_Sinister]

OoP: Pathfinder is not a source - it's an awful warning about how not to fix a system. But yeah, you're right. Sadly.

[Orion]

I don't have time to read those whole volumes (and I'd assume others don't either). Would someone(s) care to give brief summaries of what it is about these systems that you like? What's this "theory" of the Tomes, for example?

[JaronK]

Something I'd like to point out that we can learn... if the fix is too complex, no one will use it.  This is a very important point to consider.  Any fix should be as simple as possible and easy to adopt. 

JaronK

[Elennsar]

I agree to a point. But simple=/=good. What we need is a good system that we can make as simple as possible without sacrificing it being a good system.

Take hit points. Simplest method:

You get hit. You die.

I know you're not aiming for that level, but it has to be said.

[Mister_Sinister]

I don't have time to read those whole volumes (and I'd assume others don't either). Would someone(s) care to give brief summaries of what it is about these systems that you like? What's this "theory" of the Tomes, for example?

I strongly suggest that you do read them. I cannot summarise the great amount of wisdom and intelligence that went into those works, and honestly, it would be hard for anyone to. However, it is a very educating experience about how DnD truly is, and how it actually functions, put in a way anyone can understand easily.

@JaronK: Agree absolutely. As one academic once put, "If you cannot say it simply, you probably don't understand it." *looks at Pathloser*

[Omen of Peace]

I don't have time to read those whole volumes (and I'd assume others don't either). Would someone(s) care to give brief summaries of what it is about these systems that you like? What's this "theory" of the Tomes, for example?

It takes a D&D world where at least some people are optimized and looks at what it would need to be like to be coherent. So you have people who can and do chain-bind Efreeti for infinite wealth for instance (that's the Wish economy).
That's not all there is to it - some of the stuff is more applicable in "classical" campaigns.

[Midnight_v]

I am a great admirer of Frank and K's theory, which is correct almost every time. While I don't agree with many of their solutions, I cannot claim that they do not work.

I really love thier work, I argued with them a lot when I first got online, about fighters and fixes and one day K was like: Okay you know what you know, about the game but please just take a second, and reexamine what you know cause basically right now your arugment is "uh-uuuhh". Or something to that effect, I stopped listend read thier work and was suitably humbled. I went back and made a post thanking them at the den. It set me to optimizing properly really.

I think we can learn a lot from the work they've done, mostly in the sense of what Omen of Peace said.

The did a really good job of showing how absurd everything is/can be. So it easier to say "yes frank and K are right but lets change the bad things and make everything resonable," since we're just coming up with perfect houserules anyway.

Do you guys rember Szatany? The Ulitmate class makers? He did a huge body of work theres a wiki of it.

One thing I like about all this is that we have a stated goal of Tier 3. So we have great examples of what were shooting for

. Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factorum, Warblade

  So we have less dissension, F&K balanced for tier 1.
Paizo just had a marketing strategy and a few *okay* ideas.
We... we just have so much great work to draw on.
From OwA Paladin to Starlights work, we're going to end up with a really excellent system in the end. IMHO. 

[Mister_Sinister]

For the record, Szatany's Ultimate classes are available for mining here. And what Midnight_v said, pretty much.

[Sunic_Flames]

Pathfinder: How to lie to people.

Hint 1: Fixing the most broken spells that usually get house ruled anyways isn't a caster nerf if you then turn around and give them free metamagics and shit.

Hint 2: Giving small number boosts to melees isn't a buff for them if you then turn around and remove the only tricks they ever had.

Hint 3: Giving small number boosts to melees isn't nearly enough, at least not until you blandify the MM to make them all auto attacking idiots. Otherwise, they still are subject to One Trick Fail.