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Author Topic: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 30614 times)
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RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
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Posts: 7139



« on: September 10, 2008, 11:25:30 AM »

A month or so back I started a thread on Rebalancing 3.5.  It's gotten huge to the point that I was asked to split it into several sub-threads in the house-rules page.

Just so we're on the same page, what I'm looking to do is help close the gap between the drastically overpowered and the underpowered.  I'm trying to remove some of the worst abuses.  If you're familiar with JaronK's Tier system, I'm aiming for roughly a tier 3 game.

I will try to update these first posts with the current versions of what we've "agreed on."  Any recent additions will be in red so they're easier to find.

That being said, we can begin the work below.



(Cross-post links:)

Rebalancing Compendium

Races 
Core Classes
Other Classes 
Skills & Feats 
Spells 
Combat & Rules 
Equipment 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 07:15:06 AM by RobbyPants » Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 7139



« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2008, 11:25:51 AM »

Feats


Alertness *
- You gain a +2 competence bonus on Spot and Listen checks. 
- You gain Spot and Listen as class skills.
* Note: All other +2/+2 skill feats such as Athletic, Persuasive, and Nimble Fingers follow this pattern.  You add both of the two skills as class skills.


Dodge
- You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC (usable against all opponents). 
- You may only take this feat once.


Far Shot
- In addition to the normal benifits, this adds +30 feet to the range at which you can apply precision damage such as Sneak Attack, Skirmish, and Sudden Strike.
- Prereqs are now Dex 13+, Precise Shot



Great Fortitude
- You gain a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves.  Instead of rolling one save, you may roll two dice and pick the higher of the two results.  You may reroll in this fashion one time day plus one for every three character levels (round down).


Improved Toughness
- Prerequisites: Toughness, Base Fort +2
- You gain +10 additional hit points.
- You may take this feat multiple times.  Each time you gain an additional ten hit points.


Iron Will
- You gain a +2 bonus on Will saves.  Instead of rolling one save, you may roll two dice and pick the higher of the two results.  You may reroll in this fashion one time day plus one for every three character levels (round down).


Lightning Reflexes
- You gain a +2 bonus on Reflex saves.  Instead of rolling one save, you may roll two dice and pick the higher of the two results.  You may reroll in this fashion one time day plus one for every three character levels (round down).


Persistent Spell [METAMAGIC]
You can make a spell last much longer.
Prerequisite: Extend Spell.
Benefit: Spells affected by this metamagic have their duration increased as per the table below.

Initial Duration   Modified Duration
Concentration      rounds/level
rounds/level       minutes/level
minutes/level      10 minutes/level
10 minutes/level   hours/level
hours/level        24 hours

Spells of instantaneous or permanent duration cannot be affected by this feat, and spells whose effects are discharged still end normally when they are discharged. You don’t need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells (such as detect magic or detect thoughts) for you to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the subject detected, but gaining additional information requires concentration as normal. Spells with fixed durations have their duration increased to 10 times normal, to a maximum of 24 hours.

A persistent spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.


Point Blank Shot
Remove this feat.  All feats that have it as a prerequisite now have Precise Shot as a prerequisite, as well as Dex 13+.


Precise Shot
In addition to its normal benifits, add in the benifits of Point Blank Shot.  Remove PBS as a prereq (so the only prereq is Dex 13+)



Shot on the run
- Drop all the prereqs except Point Blank Shot.  This feat can be taken at level 1.


Skill Focus
- Pick a skill.  You gain a +4 competence bonus on skill checks for that skill.
- You gain the selected skill as a class skill.


Spring Attack
- Drop the prereqs.  This feat can be taken at level 1.


Toughness
- You gain a number of hit points equal to the number of hit dice you have plus two.  Each hit die you gain after taking this feat grants you an additional hit point.
- You may only take this feat once.


Two-Weapon Fighting
- In addition to the normal benifits, you gain a second off-hand attack when your BAB is +6*.  This attack is at -5 from your BAB.  When your BAB is +11, you gain a third off-hand attack*, which is at -5 from your BAB**.  When your BAB is +16, you gain a fourth off-hand attack, which is at -5 from your BAB**.
*Note: You are counted as having Improved Two-Weapon fighting at BAB +6 and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at BAB +11 for purposes of prerequisites.
**Note: This is assuming that all iterative attacks are at -5 BAB, which I've posted in the Combat & Rules thread.


Weapon Focus
- Choose a weapon.  You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls with that weapon.
- A fighter of 4th level and higher adds a +2 bonus to all damage rolls with the chosen weapon.  He is counted as having the Weapon Specialization* feat for purposes of prerequisites.  A warblade of 6th level also gains this ability.
- A fighter of 8th level and higher adds an additional +1 bonus to all attack rolls with the chosen weapon (for a total of +2).  He is counted as having the Greater Weapon Focus* feat for purposes of prerequisites.  A warblade of 10th level also gains this ability.
- A fighter of 12th level and higher adds an additional +2 bonus to all damage rolls with the chosen weapon (for a total of +4).  He is counted as having the Greater Weapon Specialization* feat for purposes of prerequisites.  A warblade of 14th level also gains this ability.
*Note: This replaces the feats Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization.


New Feats


Act on the move
- Prereqs: Spring Attack or Shot on the Run.
- When taking a standard action, you can move both before and after the action, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.


Shield Specialization
Prerequisite: Proficiency with shields.
Benifit: Choose a type of shield with which you are proficient.  The shield bonus granted by that shield increases by +1.  In addition, when making a Reflex save for half damage, you add your shield's shield bonus (including any enhanecment bonus it might have) to Reflex saves you make.  You may also add your shield bonus (including any enhanement bonus it might have) to Tumble checks made to avoid attacks of opportunity.

In addition, you may use your shield to block any physical attack (melee or ranged).  Doing so takes both an immediate action and uses one of your attacks of opportunity for the round.  You roll an attack roll opposed by the attack roll of your opponent's attack.  Your attack roll is your base attack bonus plus your Str mod (or other modifier such as Dex if using Weapon Finnesse) plus any other modifiers affecting your attack rolls.  You also add +1 bonus to attack rolls, which corresponds to the +1 bonus to AC granted by this feat.  If your roll succeeds, the attack is blocked and you take no damage.  Effectively, you replace your AC with your attack roll for this one attack.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.  Each time it applies to a different type of shield.  A fighter may take Shield Specialization as a fighter bonus feat.


Studied Precision [General]
Your knowledge of strange and exotic creatures allows you to stike them preciely.
- Prerequiste: +1d6 Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Skirmish, or Precise Strike damage.
- Benifit: You apply full Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Skirmish, or Precise Strike damage to creatures immune to critical hits based on your ranks in various Knowledge skills.  You need to have at least three ranks in the appropriate Knowledge skill to deal full precision damage with this feat.  Use the table below to find the appropriate Knowledge skill for each creature type:
Creature          Knowledge
Type              Skill
_______________________________________________________
Arcana            Constructs, Dragons, Magical Beasts
Dungeoneering     Aberrations, Oozes
Local             Humanoids
Nature            Animals, Fey, Giants, Monstrous Humaniods, Plants, Vermin
Planes            Elementals, Outsiders
Religion          Undead
- Normal: You only do half Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Skirmish, or Precise Strike damage to creatures immune to critical hits.


Two-Weapon Parry
- prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 15+
- You may forgo your off hand attacks during a full attack, although you still take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons with your main hand attacks.  If you do so, you may designate one opponent you threaten as flanked.  This condition lasts until the beginning of your next turn.  You must use at least one of your attacks against this opponent. 
- You must be wielding a weapon in your off hand to use this feat.  You may use an empty hand if you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.  You cannot use armor spikes to parry with this feat.
- Opponents with multiple weapons or shields may negate this flanknig bonus.  An opponent with multiple weapons can negate the flank by forgoing all attacks with one weapon on his next turn, but he must take a full attack option if able.  An opponent with a shield can negate the flank, but he does not add his shield bonus to AC until the end of his next turn.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 07:27:25 AM by RobbyPants » Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 7139



« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2008, 11:25:59 AM »

Tactical and Style Feats


Shield Guard [TACTICAL]
Prerequisite: Proficiency with shields, Sheild Specialization, Combat Expertise, Base Attack Bonus +6
Benifit: Shield Guard gives you three maneuvers you can use with a shield:
Shield Ally
As an immediate action, you may grant any adjacent ally a shield bonus to AC equal to that provided by your shield plus it's enhancement bonus.  However, you do not benefit from the shield's shield bonus to AC or the enhancement bonus.  This effect lasts until the start of your next turn or until you and your ally are no longer adjacent.
Shielded Interception
When an ally is charged and the charge line is within 5' of you, you may take a 5' step into the charge line as an immediate action if you are wielding a Heavy Shield.  The charging enemy now counts as charging you for all purposes, and you take a -2 penalty to AC until the beginning of your next turn.
Shielded Defense
When using the Combat Expertise feat, any bonus you add to your Armor Class from Combat Expertise is also added to your Reflex saves you make for half damage.
Special: A fighter may take Shield Guard as a fighter bonus feat.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 09:27:55 AM by RobbyPants » Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 7139



« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2008, 11:26:07 AM »

Skills

Regarding cross class skills:

The cap for cross class skills still applies to maximum ranks.  What changes is all skills (class or cross-class) are purchased one rank per point.  Effectively, this gives everyone the Able Learner feat.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 07:38:47 AM by RobbyPants » Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 7139



« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2008, 11:26:19 AM »

* Reserved Q & A *
Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
Mister_Sinister
King Kong
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Posts: 910


For some people, four walls are three too many.

rasheevkostya@hotmail.com
Email
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2008, 11:55:52 AM »

For further consideration, I would like to back-link my feat fixes that I posted here and here.

To get us going, some very nice people already had this to say about them:

Quote from: RobbyPants
The Skill tag feats might actually work well, because in order to get a large benifit from them, you have to invest three or more feats.  I suppose three feats for +6 to six skills isn't that crazy.  You only get seven feats.

As for Cleave and Great Cleave, I like that you can cleave if you do enough damage.  This makes it useful at higher levels.  Still, it looks like you don't have anything in there for being able to cleave if you simply kill the opponent with less damage.  Also, I'm unsure what "conversion" is.  A house rule?  Lastly, you might want to put something in Great Cleave preventing a 3rd or later attack from striking an opponent you've already struck.

Toughness might just be simple enough to let it stack like you did.  Below level 10, it's weaker than the version I posted.  Beyond that, it's stronger, but how much will a difference of 10 HP make per feat spent at level 20?  Probably not much.

Quote from: Tshern
M_S: What's the point of Power of Faith? The way I read it, it makes half of the damage divine after all the reductions, which kind of takes away the point. Who cares if half of your damage is divine if your Energy ray (Fire) doesn't effect that Pit fiend?

(note, I have answered that I intended it to apply BEFORE reduction)
Logged


Everything I learned about DnD I learned from Frank Trollman at The Gaming Den... but nowadays, my work space is the New DnD Wiki.

Check them both out!

RobbyPants
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 7139



« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2008, 12:43:28 PM »

Mister_Sinister, thanks for linking those.  I was going to grab them myself.

As it stands, I simply copied and pasted my earlier feats into this thread.  I haven't had time to read through all of yours and combing what I was thinking.  Still, I think your feats and my feats set the ground work for future discussion.
Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
Tshern
Clown Prince of Crime
Organ Grinder
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Posts: 5726


Aistii valoa auttavasti

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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2008, 02:46:26 PM »

Quote from: Bier on Power attack
Tshern could see the reasons behind it, and liked it, but Robby's made his call.
Aye, definitely needs some modification, but the basic idea is good. As you said, damage is not all melee dudes have.

M_S: I know that was the intention, I just had to get a jab through.
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JaronK
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2008, 08:42:09 PM »

I do actually really like the idea of skill feats giving greater bonuses as you get more of them.  Then again, having them grant class skills also works great for PrCs and the like... I can see them being useful there.

One thing to consider is that some PrCs are balanced by forcing you to "waste" feat slots on weak feats.  Making those feats strong also powers up the PrC... something to consider when talking about Ur Priests (Spell Focus: Evil and Iron Will) for example.

I also really like the idea of giving a number of basic feats better bonuses when used by Fighters.  Some examples:

Blind Fight:  Add the line "Special:  A character with Fighter levels gains additional bonuses from this feat.  Such a character reduces his miss chance due to concealment in melee by 5% for every 2 Fighter levels he possesses, until he ignores the chance entirely at level 20."

Combat Expertise:  Add the line "Special:  A character with Fighter levels gains additional bonuses from this feat.  Such a character adds an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC when using Combat Expertise for every 3 Fighter levels he possesses, to a maximum of +6 at level 20.  This bonus may increase the dodge bonus beyond the character's base attack bonus, though he still may not subtract more than his base attack bonus from his to hit roll."

Combat Reflexes:  Add the line "Special:  A character with Fighter levels gains additional bonuses from this feat.  Such a character may make one additional attack of opportunity per round for every 5 Fighter levels he possesses, to a maximum of +4 at level 20."

Dodge:  Add the line "Special:  A character with Fighter levels gains additional bonuses from this feat.  Such a character adds an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC against he chosen target for every 5 Fighter levels he possesses, to a maximum of +5 at level 20."

Improved Bull Rush:  Add the line "Special:  A character with Fighter levels gains additional bonuses from this feat.  Such a character adds an additional +1 bonus to opposed bull rush checks for every 3 Fighter levels he possesses, to a maximum of +10 at level 20."

Improved Grapple: Add the line "Special:  A character with Fighter levels gains additional bonuses from this feat.  Such a character adds an additional +1 bonus to opposed grapple checks for every 3 Fighter levels he possesses, to a maximum of +10 at level 20."

Improved Trip:  Add the line "Special:  A character with Fighter levels gains additional bonuses from this feat.  Such a character adds an additional +1 bonus to opposed trip checks for every 3 Fighter levels he possesses, to a maximum of +10 at level 20."

Weapon Focus:  Add the line "Special:  A character with Fighter levels gains additional bonuses from this feat.  Such a character adds an additional +1 bonus to hit when using the chosen weapon for every 5 Fighter levels he possesses, to a maximum of +5 at level 20."  Remove Greater Weapon Focus (it's no longer needed).

Weapon Specialization:  Add the line "Special:  A character with Fighter levels gains additional bonuses from this feat.  Such a character adds an additional +1 bonus to damage when using the chosen weapon for every 5 Fighter levels he possesses, to a maximum of +6 at level 20."  Remove Greater Weapon Specialization (it's no longer needed).

And so on.

JaronK
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Mister_Sinister
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Posts: 910


For some people, four walls are three too many.

rasheevkostya@hotmail.com
Email
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2008, 09:12:53 PM »

Quote from: JaronK
One thing to consider is that some PrCs are balanced by forcing you to "waste" feat slots on weak feats.  Making those feats strong also powers up the PrC... something to consider when talking about Ur Priests (Spell Focus: Evil and Iron Will) for example.

Yes, and this is a stupid idea. Again, this is to do with this crap right here, and the less of this we have in our fix, the better, as far as I'm concerned. At no point should you have to waste resources now to own later, or, in fact, own now only to waste resources later. These both create weird situations, not to mention the fact that, in a fair few cases, they won't even come into play, as not everyone plays from 1 to 20. Therefore, if improving these feats makes these characters suck less early, or later, I quite frankly think it's a good thing.
Also, ur-priests are crazy-good-stupid, and need a nerfbatting some anyway, so the point is largely moot.

Quote from: JaronK
...stuff on feats....

That is very similar to what I had done with my own work, actually. I was thinking, however, of implementing another layer on top of this - having combat-related feats scale with BAB (making them good for all noncasters), and giving fighters extra options on top of this. This is kinda like Frank and K's 'Combat feats lite' - I'm talking about scalarity here, not wildly variant abilities at BAB thresholds. An example of what I mean would be my Weapon Focus feat - something like that for all melee-related feats, with the extra fighter-based stuff at the end. How does that sound?
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Everything I learned about DnD I learned from Frank Trollman at The Gaming Den... but nowadays, my work space is the New DnD Wiki.

Check them both out!

JaronK
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Posts: 4039


« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2008, 09:42:42 PM »

I was thinking, however, of implementing another layer on top of this - having combat-related feats scale with BAB (making them good for all noncasters), and giving fighters extra options on top of this.

You keep saying this as though all non casters have full BAB and casters all have poor BAB.  Please, think of the Rogues.  What did they ever do to deserve nerfbatting?  Likewise, what about the War Hulk?  He's a Tier 4 class (great at hitting things hard, but that's about all he can do) and doesn't need to get nerfed. 

Now, I'm assuming we'll be hitting Divine Power so Clerics don't have full BAB all the time, but let's not forget that Battle Sorcerers, Clerics, and Druids have the same BAB as Rogues, Scouts, and Swordsages.

JaronK
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Mister_Sinister
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Posts: 910


For some people, four walls are three too many.

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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2008, 10:04:15 PM »

Jaron, read my comments on the Classes post to this intent. I believe you should get full BAB OR 9th level casting, and never both at any point, ever. Furthemore, I want BAB to mean something.
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Everything I learned about DnD I learned from Frank Trollman at The Gaming Den... but nowadays, my work space is the New DnD Wiki.

Check them both out!

JaronK
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Posts: 4039


« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2008, 12:35:39 AM »

I really don't think it's a good idea to make BAB be the be all end all... especially for Swordsages, Rogues, and the like.  I think melees should get more interesting class features instead.  Changing what BAB does would have drastic effects on already balanced classes like the Dread Necromancer, Warblade, and Crusader.

JaronK
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Surgo
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goes to eleven

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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2008, 12:36:55 AM »

Jaron, read my comments on the Classes post to this intent. I believe you should get full BAB OR 9th level casting, and never both at any point, ever. Furthemore, I want BAB to mean something.
I hope you're planning on getting rid of or significantly changing Leadership then, because if you don't characters get something that's even more powerful than both full BAB and 9th level casting (the ability to do both in the same round).

Honestly, it's really hard to justify a nerf for just about anything while Leadership is around.
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Elennsar
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2008, 12:41:33 AM »

Agreement, though not completle. Getting a cohort is like getting a second (somewhat weaker) PC, and even if the DM plays them as "independent with their own feelings and desires', not only are they loyal to you, they're obligated to obey you.

I'd like to see the advantage removed, frankly. If you want to play a guy with lots of followers, be a guy who lots of people would follow. And play in a campaign where that's not a problem, as opposed to adventuring, where adventurers are supposed to be doing stuff.
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Mister_Sinister
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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2008, 01:03:36 AM »

Quote from: Surgo
I hope you're planning on getting rid of or significantly changing Leadership then, because if you don't characters get something that's even more powerful than both full BAB and 9th level casting (the ability to do both in the same round).

Honestly, it's really hard to justify a nerf for just about anything while Leadership is around.

True. At the same time, I believe that Leadership is nonsensical as a feat, because it's a storyline ability, a la Elothar, Warrior of Bladereach. If you get a follower, it should be because, as Elennsar put it, you deserve it from the story, not because you hit 6th level and somebody wants to tag along for some reason.
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Shadowhowler
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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2008, 01:25:32 AM »


Alertness *
- You gain a +2 bonus on Spot and Listen checks. 
- You gain Spot or Listen as a class skill.  You must make this choice when you take this feat and cannot change it.
* Note: All other +2/+2 skill feats such as Athletic, Persuasive, and Nimble Fingers follow this pattern.  You may pick one of the two skills as a class skill.


Dodge
- You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC (usable against all opponents). 
- You may only take this feat once.


Great Fortitude
- You gain a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves.  Instead of rolling one save, you may roll two dice and pick the higher of the two results.  You may do this a number of times per day equal to one plus your base Fortitude save divided by three (round down).


Iron Will
- You gain a +2 bonus on Will saves.  Instead of rolling one save, you may roll two dice and pick the higher of the two results.  You may do this a number of times per day equal to one plus your base Will save divided by three (round down).


Lightning Reflexes
- You gain a +2 bonus on Reflex saves.  Instead of rolling one save, you may roll two dice and pick the higher of the two results.  You may do this a number of times per day equal to one plus your base Reflex save divided by three (round down).


 
A few thoughts...
 
With The Alertness, Athletic, Persuasive, and so on style feats... I'd have both skills become class skills.
 
With Dodge, I liked the idea one guy posted (I forget who) where it's +1 Ac vs everyone, or +2 vs one target, your choice.
 
With Iron Will, Great Fordatude, and Lighting Reflexes, maybe a mechanic thats idiot simple, like one Reroll every 3 levels.
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Mister_Sinister
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2008, 01:34:48 AM »

Quote
With Dodge, I liked the idea one guy posted (I forget who) where it's +1 Ac vs everyone, or +2 vs one target, your choice.

That would be me.
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Shadowhowler
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2008, 01:37:50 AM »

That would be me.

 
 
Ah, well... good on you then. I liked that a lot, both mechanicly and theamaticly.  Clap
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Psychic Robot
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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2008, 03:30:46 AM »

I vote for combining feats.

Why do you need a billion archery feats?  Christ, pare them down to like two or three.  Same thing goes for the Improved Trip/Bull Rush/etc. feats.

Examples:

Quote
Blind Fight:  In melee, you don’t suffer the -2 penalty for attacking an opponent with concealment.  Against spells and effects such as blur, the penalties you take are reduced by two, to a minimum of 0.

An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker’s bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.

You take only half the usual penalty to speed for being unable to see.  Darkness and poor visibility in general do not reduce your speed.

When you have +8 base attack bonus, you don’t suffer the -5 penalty for attacking an opponent with total concealment.  Against spells and effects such as blur, the penalties you take are reduced by five, to a minimum of 0.
Quote
Combat Acrobatics:  You get a +5 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area.

Remember that dodge bonuses stack, unlike most other kinds of bonus.

In addition, if you succeed in tumbling past an opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity, you get a +5 bonus on your next attack against that opponent, as long as you make it before the end of your current turn.
Quote
Combat Casting:  You gain a +5 bonus on Concentration checks to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability while you are on the defensive or are grappling, pinned, or taking damage.  In addition, you can fluidly combine the somatic components of your spells with your combat style—you no longer need one free hand to cast spells with a somatic component.  (You do still, however, need to be able to move to cast them.)

Special: You still require a hand free for casting spells that have material components or foci.
Quote
Craft Magic Items: You can craft everything?
Quote
Military Training:  You gain proficiency with all types of armor, shields, and simple and martial weapons.
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