D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Elennsar]

Zero: Why? Why should it be a decision whether or not you use your powers to stun people (or smite people), or go into a terrifying and effective battle fury, as a part of "resourcement management"?

This isn't about "why do you like that"...why should the -characters- have to be "managing resources".

Veekie: I think you might have a good idea here. Assuming it can be worked into fluff, too.

My problem is that there ought to be abilities that the character can use as often as he can make them work (for instance, as often as he can hit).

No point cost, however minimal...just make sure you can succeed and stun, stun, stun.

[Mister_Sinister]

@Elennsar: The veekie-Sinister system has abilities which cost nothing whatsoever already. It's just that, under it, all SoDs and most SoSs would fall into 'special', and thus point-burning, areas.

[ZeroSum]

why should the -characters- have to be "managing resources".

Well, here's my assumptions:
Play skill is fun.
Good play skill should be rewarded.
Poor play skill should be punished.
Knowing when to use the big guns is an example of play skill.

Now, without resource management then the player merely selects his most powerful attack and uses it whenever possible.  This removes play skill.

[Elennsar]

You completely missed my question.

Why should the character have to do it?

Not "why should Elennsar have to do it?" Why should Galadedhel (my PC in Sinister's and AfterCrescent's game) have to do it?

[ZeroSum]

Who cares?  The game isn't about making the characters have fun.  Is the suspension of disbelief a problem?  Because the exhaustion aspect of the veekie-Sinister system handles an in-game reasoning behind it.

[veekie]

Well, Zerosum, about the number of uses, yes that does seem like a lot at first, only that after the 5th one or so, the fighter will start slipping into the fatigued condition when he uses one, which would dampen his effectiveness. I recommend that the system be used mainly on standard/swift/move/immediate action powers though, using it on something like a basic melee attack could be pretty explosive due to the number that can be churned out.

Elenesar, think of it not as resource management per se, in character, it's holding back your energy in reserve so you aren't as tired and vulnerable after a fight. As a game dynamic, the need for some level of resource management gives a fight variety, provided that it's not such an overarching concern that you need to take lessons in managing the stuff.

This system gives some room for recovery, if you burn everything points to deliver a decisive attack, you best make sure the target goes down, or you'd be fighting him with little left in your tanks. On the other hand, the occasional splurge shouldn't be too bad, since unless you actually hit rock bottom exhaustion wise, it's nothing a few minutes resting wouldn't fix.

EDIT: Also, I think we could put all the points in a shared pool accessed by all of a character's abilities, though how many points is expended by an ability may vary. Also tying discounts to character level should stave off going nova with a prematurely discounted ability somewhat.

[ZeroSum]

Isn't this pushing towards "Psionics with every class ability equal to a Psionic power plus recharge"?

[Elennsar]

Veekie: I can accept that, if the consequences of spending the "pool" involve fatigue. Its the "X uses/day" that murders my suspension of disbelief. If its an energy thing, then I should be able to use it until I'm exhausted, if I so choose. So good.

Though I'd like to rework 3.5 here in regards to fatigue states, I'd rather not do that until I know how much we're making use of it.

[veekie]

Isn't this pushing towards "Psionics with every class ability equal to a Psionic power plus recharge"?

Could put it that way I guess, though tying it to fatigue helps with suspension of disbelief, and it's using a fairly straightforward method of recharge, with stages(<0, <1/4, <1/2, full power,) instead of counting point by point or power by power.

[RobbyPants]

Isn't this pushing towards "Psionics with every class ability equal to a Psionic power plus recharge"?

Yeah, I'm not sure how much I like making a point based system for every class.  I'm not saying it couldn't work, but do we need to change the game that much?  Why can't we try to balance the classes without adding a new mechanic for all of them?

[ZeroSum]

Just for reference:  I'm just talking mechanically -- fluff is easy to handwave away given enough creative thinking.  I just wanted to point out that there's a balanced system in place that does most of what you're doing.  So I think if we're going to explore this further we should try matching it to Psionics and working off that premise.

As for introducing a new mechanic, well, Bo9S did that and it worked out fine.

[Mister_Sinister]

ZeroSum, you're pretty much on the ball with this. However, unlike with psionics, we only want to make the best abilities cost a daily renewable resource. Effectively, these are the special, awesome, only-do-a-few-times-in-a-movie type stuff. The stuff you do over and over shouldn't cost resources - that's just silly. So in a way, we are going for a kind of cross between the warlock and psionics.

[RabidPirateMan]

I vote in favor of Hexblades keeping spells.  It allows them to do something with their standard actions if they cant get in range for a strike, and adds versatility.

[Elennsar]

Hexblades are allowed to use ranged weapons, you know. Its not like they're forced to use hexes, attack in melee, or flail around uselessly.

[Midnight_v]

I think resource managment is already out.
It's out of the bag for melee especially, and the designers knew that in the end.
I point to the ToB and the ToM and the "fixes" proposed by the creators.
Frank and K said it and now I'm gonna repeat it. I think the game has moved away from resource management for characters and more towards "Economy of Actions".
The came is now about having something to do with "Standard/Move/Swift/immeditate" than it does perday moves." also one of the things that peole have really complained about was smite for example if my classes primary feature is smiting why can I only do it twice a day?
Fighter's never had much resource managment to deal with anyway. That has always really been the purview of spellcasters and the vancian system really.

Thats my take on it. Since we're supposed to look at the Tob for an objective balancing point then warriors have to have an on par ability set. On thing they don't do is have to worry about resource managment.
If your going to have somthing thats once aday it has to be truly pootentially game altering.
For example the tenobrous apostates' blast from the void "or a Wizards 9th level spell", what else.

 I you re-read owa paladin there is some resource management tied to his smite system in the forme of "smite feats" You may be able to smite 3 times an encouter but you'll only be able to channel lighting as a divine blast once per encounter, and thats really a good rubric to operate under in my opinion.

[Mister_Sinister]

Midnight, you're totally right here, but I disagree on one point. Some things SHOULD cost resources that are recouped only after some manner of temporal or conditional delay - making everything at-will creates the problem that some abilities, no matter how hard we try to balance them, will always get used over others.

[RobbyPants]

One thing I'd like to discuss is psionics.  I have the XPH and have used it a bit, but I wouldn't consider myself an expert on the topic.  I'll rely on all of you for more experience.  From what I've seen, it's a more balanced system than magic, but it still has a few problems.  My basic stance on what needs to be fixed is:
- The wilder needs to suck less.
- The soul knife either needs to suck less or be scrapped and have it's mind blade turned into a level-1 psychic warrior power.
- A few abusable powers need to be addressed (possibly in the spells thread).

Any thoughts would be very welcome.

[Mister_Sinister]

Back on the WotC boards, BlaineTog posted a very solid soulknife fix, but I cannot locate it at present.

As for the wilder, it basically needs to have wild surge which doesn't get worse as you gain levels, and volatile mind getting something against nonpsionics. Their bonus to AC shouldn't increase for how much armour they strap on, either.

[RobbyPants]

Back on the WotC boards, BlaineTog posted a very solid soulknife fix, but I cannot locate it at present.

I can't easily find it either.  I might have copied the text into Word and might have it on another computer.

As for the wilder, it basically needs to have wild surge which doesn't get worse as you gain levels, and volatile mind getting something against nonpsionics. Their bonus to AC shouldn't increase for how much armour they strap on, either.

How about Overchannel as a bonus feat at level 1?  Perhaps a similar ability worked in as a class feature, with a percentage chance of hurting you.  I need to think about this.

Elude Touch is okay.  Not great but not bad.
 
Surging Euphoria is actually kind of cool by concept.  It will depend on what we do to Wild Surge as to how well this still fits.

Volatile Mind seems pretty crappy.  If this is really necessary wilder fluff, it seems we could work out a lot better mechanic for it.

Other than that, should the wilder get more power known?  Eleven powers by 20th level is pretty piddly.  I'd say it needs more powers, needs more class abilities, or both.

[Mister_Sinister]

I would vote for more of both.