D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[RobbyPants]

True but we've never considers its class abilities in and of themselves. Getting free spells every level + spells from scrolls may or maynot be a problem. As everyone learns spells every level and scrolls again vary greatly in availability. (see dm usefulness above).

Well, I don't have a problem with them gaining spells though scrolls; I just want the spell list to be the same for both ways they acquire spells, like a wizard.  Basically, every level, a wizard gets two spells for free off of the wizard list, and he can add more spells to his book from scrolls off of the wizard list.  He can't, however, add spells from the bard list, even though they're arcane spells.

The archivist (as printed), however, adds cleric spells for free every level, but can draw from any divine spell list when he scribes from scrolls.  That's the difference I'm talking about.  I want both methods of spell acquisition to draw from the same list.  That way, DM's don't freak out and limit how the archivist can find scrolls as a knee-jerk reaction.

Essentially what I'm suggesting is a hard look at its powers. I like them.
I think well... maybe its a fair stand in for a bard. It's never going to have the resorces of feats and the such dedicated to it, but its open ended for growth which make is good.

Still a +1 to all its uses of dark knowledge is actually a less fair trade for being stipped of the ability to use all the spells in existance.
The per encounter thing is probbably a good consideration as well so thats 2.

Well, how about a switch to per-encounter uses?  Having a lot per day doesn't really allow the archivst to "nova" his uses; he only gets so much benifit from them in any one given encounter.  Switching to a per-encounter allocation allows the player to spread them more freely without worrying about running out in a long adventuring day.  It's a potental boost in number per day (depending on the number of fights) and a boost in flexability.

[Midnight_v]

What is the flavor of the archivist supposed to be? He goes places to gather up all the divine spells there are, and uses his knowledge of monsters to aid in their killing?

Well, Soda, has hit on to something here.
What exactly is the flavor of this thing "Supposed" to be?
I'm not certain but I though it  was supposed to be

"Personally, I think the second option would be the best... Even though Archivist will lose quite a bit of power, he will keep the fluff of "guy that knows obscure spells"

Which actually always made me think "isn't that the wizard?"

I have this itch to make this class more like "what indana jones would be" give it more skill points or something. It vague but I think its important this once.
To really define what's being shot for.

Even if the class works its still like "Why do we need this class, as opposed to playing a wizard or a cleric to the god of secrets"

... they should at least have UMD...

[RobbyPants]

I'm fine with this being like a "divine wizard" personally.

I do agree that I liked my "second" option best for how to handle casting.  It can give each archivist a unique feel.

Another option for boosting Dark Knowledge uses (if we stick with per-day) is to give a bonus number per day equal to his Wis bonus (if any).  This gives even more emphasis on his secondary casting stat.  This is also similar to the cleric getting bonus turn attempts based on Cha.

As for adding UMD, I can see it.  It is a siginfiant boost, but with the modification to feats like Skill Focus, anyone can pick it up as a class skill with little investment.

[Risada]

Personally, I think the second option would be the best... Even though Archivist will lose quite a bit of power, he will keep the fluff of "guy that knows obscure spells"...

I wanted to say "obscure divine spells"... oh well...

And as long as we don't call the archivist a mere "bookkeeper", I'm fine...

As for adding UMD, I can see it.  It is a siginficant boost, but with the modification to feats like Skill Focus, anyone can pick it up as a class skill with little investment.

I'm fine with this...

[RobbyPants]

So, I guess, what are the current suggested changes?

The spell list is the same as the new cleric spell list and new domain lists combined.  The archivist can only scribe from divine scrolls from this combined list.

Add UMD as a class skill.

Some boost to the uses of Dark Knowledge.  How do we want to handle this?  Per encounter?  Add Wis bonus (if any) to per day uses?  Something else?

Is there anything else we wanted to modify?

[Risada]

So, I guess, what are the current suggested changes?

The spell list is the same as the new cleric spell list and new domain lists combined.  The archivist can only scribe from divine scrolls from this combined list.

Add UMD as a class skill.

Some boost to the uses of Dark Knowledge.  How do we want to handle this?  Per encounter?  Add Wis bonus (if any) to per day uses?  Something else?

Is there anything else we wanted to modify?

As I said before, increase the bonuses granted by Dark Knowledge by 1 (or even 2) shouldn't be such a big impact, I guess... and thinking up on new uses for it...

[RobbyPants]

I'd have to look at HoH more closely before I can give any informed opinion.  One thing I've always loved is that it's a move action and not a standard action, so you can buff and cast in the same round.

Another mid-high level boost could come in the form of an X/day or X/encounter ability to use it as a swift action instead.  It's not a huge boost in that it's not currently a standard action, but it would increase his maneuverability in a round he dicides to both act and use DK.

[Midnight_v]

I know I know we've reache the level where we feel like things are mostly "Done" but I dont' want to lose momentum on the project. So here's my shameless bump.

[RobbyPants]

Well, even in these past few weeks, I haven't gotten around to sitting down with my HoH and really looking at the archivst.  Also, I know you were talking about working on the hexblade months ago but got busy.  I posted a quick version a while ago based strongly on OW4's paladin.  I'll repost it for you.

Here it is:

Okay, this is still a tentative rewrite, but here's a new version of the hexblade.  I used the CW version and OW4's paladin as the framework.  The hex has been made per encounter, the hexblade gets new hexes to choose from, he gets four switchable auras (that mirror OW4's paladin auras), the spells per day have been increased to match the paladin, and there are a few new things added in.



Hexblade

Hit Dice: d10

Class Skills: Per Complete Warrior
Skills Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int mod) * 4
Skill Points Each Additional Level: 4 + Int mod

Level Special                      - Spells per Day -
                                   1st  2nd  3rd  4th
______________________________________________________
1     Hexblade's curse (1/enc)      -    -    -    -
2     Arcane resistance             -    -    -    -
3     Mettle, Aura of Despair       -    -    -    -
4     Summon Familiar               0    -    -    -
5     Hexblade's curse (2/enc)      1    -    -    -
6     Bonus feat, Curse of          2    -    -    -
      Frailty
7     Greater hexblade's curse      2    0    -    -
8     Aura of Carelessness          3    1    -    -
9     Hexblade's curse (3/enc)      3    2    -    -
10    Curse of Unluck               3    2    0    -
11    Bonus feat                    4    3    1    -
12    Retributive curse             4    3    2    -
13    Hexblade's curse (4/enc),     4    3    2    0
      Aura of Wavering
14    Curse of Vulnerability        4    4    3    1
15    Chain hex (1/enc)             5    4    3    2
16    Bonus feat                    5    4    3    2
17    Hexblade's curse (5/enc)      5    4    4    3
18    Aura of Doubt                 5    5    4    3
19    Dire hexblade's curse         5    5    4    3
20    Bonus feat, Chain hex (2/enc) 6    5    4    4

Level   - Spells known -
       1st  2nd  3rd  4th
___________________________
1       -    -    -    -
2       -    -    -    -
3       -    -    -    -
4       21   -    -    -
5       2    -    -    -
6       3    -    -    -
7       3    21   -    -
8       3    2    -    -
9       4    3    -    -
10      4    3    21   -
11      4    3    2    -
12      5    4    3    -
13      5    4    3    21
14      5    4    3    2
15      6    5    4    3
16      6    5    5    3
17      6    5    4    3
18      7    6    5    4
19      7    6    5    4
20      7    6    5    4
___________________________
1 Provided the hexblade has sufficient Charisma to have a bonus spell of this level

Class Features

Hexblade's Curse: Per Complete Warrior, except the hex is a swift action and is useable once per encounter.  As a hexblade increases in level, he gains different types of hexes to choose from.  If an opponent succeeds on its Will save against the hex, the opponent is immune to all forms of the hexblade curse for 24 hours.  Any opponent may be affected by multiple hexes if they are each of a different type.  For example, an opponent could be targeted with a Hexblade's Curse and a Curse of Frailty, but not with two Curses of Frailty.

Arcane Resistance: Per Complete Warrior.

Mettle: Per Complete Warrior.

Aura of Despair: At 3rd level, each opponent within 30 feet of the hexblade suffers a -4 penalty on saving throws against fear effects.  This scales with the hexblade's level.  The penalty increases to -6 at level 8 and they take a -1 penalty on attack rolls.  At level 13, the save penalty increases to -8 and the attack penalty increases to -2.  At level 18, opponents automatically fail any save against a fear effect and the attack penalty increases to -3.  This is a switchable Aura.

Switchable Auras: The Auras of Despair, Carelessness, Wavering, and Doubt are switchable as a move action. You may have only one of these auras active at a given time. These auras function while the hexblade is conscious, but not while the hexblade is unconscious or dead.

Summon Familiar: Per Complete Warrior.

Bonus Feat: Per Complete Warrior, plus the hexblade can choose any metamagic feat.

Curse of Frailty: This curse counts as a Hexblade's Curse.  An opponent who fails his Will save take a -4 penalty to Strength and Dexterity for the duration of the curse.  This penalty cannot reduce either score below 1.  When the hexblade gains Greater Hexblade's Curse (see below), the penalties increase to -8.  When the hexblade gains Dire Hexblade's Curse (see below), the penalties increase to -12.

Greater Hexblade's Curse: Per Complete Warrior.  This also increases the potency of the new curses, as described in their entries.

Aura of Carelessness: Upon reaching 8th level, the hexblade may exude an Aura of Carelessness. While this ability is active, the hexblade bestows a -1 penalty to AC to all opponents within 30 feet. At level 13, this penalty increases to -2. At level 18, this penalty increases to -3. This is a switchable aura

Curse of Unluck: This curse counts as a Hexblade's Curse.  An opponent who fails his Will save suffers a 20% miss chance on any attack he makes for the duration of the curse.  When the hexblade gains Dire Hexblade's Curse (see below), the miss chance increases to 50%.

Retributive curse: The hexblade can use this curse to damage an opponent who just damaged him as an immediate action.  This deals damage to the opponent equal to the amount dealt to the hexblade from a single attack, spell, or ability.  The opponent must succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 hexblade level + Cha mod) or take the same amount of damage.  This ability can be used once per encounter.

Aura of Wavering: Beginning at 13th level, the hexblade gains Aura of Wavering.  While this ability is active, any opponent within 30 feet of the hexblade must roll two Fortitude saves anytime they make a roll a Fortitude save .  They must take the lower of the two results.  This only applies to the first Fortitude save the opponent rolls each round.  This is a switchable Aura.

Curse of Vulnerability: This curse counts as a Hexblade's Curse.  An opponent who fails his Will save has his Spell Resistance (if any) reduced by 10 for the duration of the curse.  When the hexblade gains Dire Hexblade's Curse (see below), the Spell Resistance is reduced by 20.

Chain hex: Once per encounter, the hexblade can use a hex to affect several targets, to a maximum of his hexblade level.  All targets must be within 30 feet of eachother.  Each target rolls a separate Will save.  If any target succeeds on its Will save, the chain is broken, and no more targets are affected.  This ability uses one of the hexblade's uses of Hexblade's Curse.  At 20th level, the hexblade can use this twice per encounter.

Aura of Doubt: At 18th level, the hexblade gains Aura of Doubt. While this ability is active, any opponent within 30 feet of the hexblade must roll two Will saves anytime they make a roll a Will save.  They must take the lower of the two results.  This only applies to the first Will save the opponent rolls each round.  This is a switchable Aura.

Dire Hexblade's Curse: Per Complete Warrior.  This also increases the potency of the new curses, as described in their entries.



Additional Hexblade Spells
These spells are in addition to those presented in Complete Warrior:

Level 1:
Doom
Ray of Enfeeblement

Level 2:
Shatter

Level 3:
Hold Person
Suggestion

Level 4:
Bestow Curse
Dimensional Anchor

[SiggyDevil]

If the Hexblade curse is by encounter, is the 24-hour-immunity really needed?
IMO not.
If anything, needs more cursing in combat.
At low levels the ability is pretty much wasted (your one shot in that battle) if the save passes. There's no more.

Perhaps 3/enc to start, or some kind of refresh mechanism such as being injured or rolling a 20 on attack (foe is automatically targeted with curse, must make save)

[RobbyPants]

Perhaps 3/enc to start, or some kind of refresh mechanism such as being injured or rolling a 20 on attack (foe is automatically targeted with curse, must make save)

Interesting...

[SKRP]

or rolling a 20 on attack (foe is automatically targeted with curse, must make save)

It favors two-weapon fighting hexblades a bit. What about something like regaining one use of curse (up to maximum limit) per each saving roll failed by an enemy creature in 30 ft. range?

[bogsnes]

Will it be a spellthief fix here too?

[RobbyPants]

I've never played one, so I wouldn't even know where to begin with them.  I suppose people more knowledgeable and experienced than me can say what they do and don't like about the class, and where the class is lacking.

[bogsnes]

It is tier 4 on the tier system, which means it shouldn't need too much, though...

Maybe increase SA progression or give him some more spells?

I don't know as I've never played one either, but I think I'll play one later, which is why I am interested in making it Tier 3...

The main problems I can see is probably that it has got big troubles against targets it can't steal spells from...

[BowenSilverclaw]

That's what it has friendly casters for, and UMD, and plenty of other options.

[bogsnes]

Hmm... so what is then the reason for tier 4?
And what to do to increase it to tier 3?

[veekie]

Some form of spell channeling would look real neat on one.

[Sinfire Titan]

Oh boy...

Artificer: Borrow a little from 4E. The have at will and encounter abilities, but their Dailies would be more of Charges/Day than Dailies. I feel this would be more balanced than using the original, and we should leave rituals out,

Shadowcaster: Similar to the Artificer, but have a recovery mechanic for the abilities (Dailies get a recharge time).

Dragonfire Adept: Solid base class as-is, but we can give it more options and abilities.

Warlock: Same as DFA; the original was a great idea, they just didn't take it far enough.

Hexblade: I think everyone can agree that the Duskblade is the best chassis for the class. The spell list can be balanced out. Personally, I like the idea of the Curse being an Invocation and this class having Invocations to use, something I felt the Duskblade could have used.

Duskblade: Advanced Learning, Invocations (namely one to replace Arcane Channeling), and a slightly modified spell/skill list. Oh, and more spells known.

Most of the Tier 3's: Fine as-is, though a compilation of the variants and sub levels would allow us to alter and fix the ones that were poorly executed.

Psychic Warrior: I always felt it should have Full BAB. Others feel that the Soulknife and this class should have been the same class. I'd suggest combining the ideas. As is, the 3.5 PsiWar is one of the best balanced classes ever printed.

Incarnum Classes: I think it's safe for me to call dibs here. I know where their weaknesses are, and I know what can be done about most of the problems. The thing is, these classes can be a replacement for the Magic Item system, and I feel that this is the most important thing to focus on. The Incarnate's major flaw is a low number of attacks/round or a poor focus on abilities (Chaotic Neutral). The Totemist's only problem is low damage output due to feat starvation. The Soulborn is a kettle of fish on it's own, but I'm working on it. This much can be left to me.

Binder: Options are the big problem. The original received 4 additional vestiges and no PrC support at all. Furthermore, two of the original PrCs are automatic musts, an inherent design flaw. Either you go Anima Mage or you go Knight of the Sacred Seal, no exceptions. Binder 20 is playable, but those two PrCs are just so vastly superior to it that not taking one of them means you are holding back.

The Knight of the Sacred Seal can be made into a base class, and with work the Anima Mage can be one too. The problem is balancing them against the original so that all three are viable. I think we may need to overhaul the Vestiges for the original class, and then have each class have it's own limitations on what Vestiges you can shape. The Binder itself needs a clearly defined role (as is, it is a Jack of All Trades), and that role should be focused on.

Factotum: Nerf the action-abuse. Improve Inspiration Points. Fix Arcane Dilettante. As much as I love the class, and as much as I allow the unmodified version of the Cunning Surge feature, I know where the broken parts lay. Unlimited use of an extra action class feature that comes that early in the game is just too much. Limiting it to 1/round is a fine fix, but then the complaints will never end. Arcane Dilettante can become a bunch of Invocations, and having those cost IP would still make the Warlock a viable class. Base IP needs to be above the values currently set. Font of Inspiration needs a relimit applied (3 or 5 times, max).

Truenamer: GiantITP keeps promoting their fix, but to be honest I think that fix is too weak for it's own good. Dman and others tell me that having the Truenaming mechanic as a skill check is too risky (though I have my doubts, all it needs is a limit and the skill system can be used). I'm willing to work on some ideas here, but I do not believe the Truenaming mechanic should be a Level-based check. I liked the skill check version, it was unusual. The major problem is that basing an entire class off of a skill check is tricky. Too much power, and the optimized class goes overboard. Too little power, and the class becomes unplayable outright. But the major problem is Magic Items here. Overhaul the Magic Item Creation system, and the Truenamer can function off of a skill check system. I'll contribute as much as I can to this idea, but I have quite a bit on my plate as is with Incarnum and RL. If someone can take over for me, I'll send them my current ideas.

Wu-Jen, Shugenja: Scrap them. At best, they are a variant.

Favored Soul: Anything done to the Cleric and Sorcerer should be combined into this class' fix. Alternatively, we combine this idea with the Paladin. I can do that, as the idea has been floating in my head for weeks now.

Spirit Shaman: Aside from the Druid's spell list being broken, and the Ghost Form (or whatever it is called) ability being a touch too strong for my tastes, this class never struck me to be Tier 2. I honestly don't know what to do with it though. I'll take a look, see what needs to go and what can stay.

Psionics in general: People love this system (you know who you are). I, for one, feel the only thing needed to be done is to ID powers that need nerfing/deletion/clarification. The system can largely remain intact, it's just individual powers that need repair. Lycanthromancer is a good source for information here. His input would be invaluable.

One thing though: I feel they should retain their nova-potential. If the DM runs the campaign right, their ability to nova will be kept in check. If the DM feels like throwing them a bone, he should allow them to nova once every few sessions or so. But we need to make it clear to DMs that damage isn't their best option, and that novas have a backlash attached. I like the idea of having a nova option on a class, as it allows players to hit the Panic Button when they absolutely have to. The major problem is informing DMs that players who constantly go nova are doing it wrong and deserve to be maimed by the 3rd encounter of the day.

Psion: Needs actual class features. That's it. Power revamping should take care of the rest of the brokenage.

Wilder: Invert the Surge backlash. Every additional class level beyond 1st should reduce the risk of being dazed and screwed. Otherwise, just improve powers known and give them a clear role (as is, they look like a Gish Wannabe).

Erudite: If I ever get around to it, I will make a handbook for the original. But the original cannot be allowed to stay. This class was a horrid idea, and why Cordell thought it was balanced enough to print in cannon is beyond me.

Ardent: The main problems are taken care of via revamping the Powers. The other problems I see is that some combination of mantles will result in the Ardent having no powers known of certain levels and that their ability to learn powers is based on manifester level, not class level.

Lurk: Replace with Psychic Rogue.

Divine Mind: I've heard talk that some of the Mind's Eye articles provide a wonderful boost to this class' power. I always see a Paladin/Marshal/War Mind wannabe whenever I look at this class. Whatever we do, we need to make sure this class is on par with the revamped Paladin and Ranger.

Marshal: Combine with Dragon Shaman/Divine Mind? Or Sublime version? Both?

Dragon Shaman: Combine with Marshal/Divine Mind? Or DFA? Both?

Beguiler: Individual spell nerfing will take care of the major problems. Subsume into Sorcerer.

Dread Necromancer: As Beguiler.

Warmage: As Beguiler, but fix the crap.

[bogsnes]

Factotum: Nerf the action-abuse. Improve Inspiration Points. Fix Arcane Dilettante. As much as I love the class, and as much as I allow the unmodified version of the Cunning Surge feature, I know where the broken parts lay. Unlimited use of an extra action class feature that comes that early in the game is just too much. Limiting it to 1/round is a fine fix, but then the complaints will never end. Arcane Dilettante can become a bunch of Invocations, and having those cost IP would still make the Warlock a viable class. Base IP needs to be above the values currently set. Font of Inspiration needs a relimit applied (3 or 5 times, max).

Also, improve the sneak attack ability (cunning strike) to apply to all attacks in a full attack, because that will probably fix the biggest problem with the factotum...

I don't think that FoI needs a limit actually, because if you are actually taking it more than like, three times, you are probably just nerfing yourself unless in a very specific build (like the Factotum//Warblade gestalt on 339)...

I agree on that base IP needs to be higher but that could probably also be fixed by giving them some bonus IP based on Int (among other things, maybe about 1/2 Int modifier)...

Arcane dilletante is about fine as is, I think, it basically does what it should do, it actually makes the Factotum more versatile than a wizard on a day by day basis, as he can choose ANY arcane spells... I think if you should fix it, you probably should do something like letting him choose among invocations or spells, where invocations are weaker, still costs IP, but can be used multiple times per day...

I have no problem with cunning surge being limited to 1/round as far as power go, but the fun factor is so big and it is still the only class that can do it, so personally, I think that it should be limited to 1/round at 8th level because the thing that can make it so powerful is that it can be combined with 9th level spells PrCs like Ur-Priest and stuff... So maybe 1/round at 8th level, 2/round at 12th level, and unlimited at 15 or something...

And all in all FACTOTUM FTW