D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[RobbyPants]

A lot of the feats wouldn't work, at least as written.  There are four general types of sorcerer heritage feats:

1) Ones geared off of the number of heritage feats you have, such as you gain 3 fire resistance per draconic heritage feat.  These feats would work fine.

2) Ones that are powered off of spell slots, such as you breath a cone of fire that deals 2d6 damage per level of the spell slot.  These would not work.

3) Ones that add to your spell list of spells known.  These wouldn't work unless you modified them to grant 1/day SLAs.

4) Ones that grant a power when you cast a standard-action spell, such as you gain a fly speed equal to 10 feet times the spell level for one round.  These might work if you gear it off of invocation level.

[veekie]

RE: the Favored soul, I see it as a more domain focused version of the cleric, with stronger, tiered, and often transformative domain powers(ala the alternate domain powers I made for the cleric some time ago), unique to favored souls, but at the same time, are screwed out of spells outside their domain.

[RobbyPants]

If we want the class to be different, that's certainly a way to go.

I hadn't given it much thought myself.  I was leaning toward something that would get a lot of class features to make it outsider-ish right off the get go and put more emphasis on the class abilities than what it currently has.

This is a bit off topic, but I think it'd be fun to create a new class that's based on the warlock, but all it's "invocations" would be more like existing divine spells.  Their "eldritch blast" would be either possitive or negative energy (and would be fully capable of healing).  I don't think it'd be a hard class to come up with, but personally, I'd consider that more of a house-rule than a balance fix.  If I find some spare time, I might create one, and I could see replacing the favored soul with that.

One thing I love about these boards is looking at new classes people create and fixes for existing ones they come up with.  It's a great way to pick other people's brains without having to even ask a question.

[veekie]

Also, RE that idea, I figure, screw off the warlock's alignment requirements and build it right in. You got Fey pacts(though hardly represented in the invocations), Fiendish pacts, just throw in some divine/angelic ones too. All it takes is custom invocations, and maybe make the DR thing selectable.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, the selectable DR would make sense.  Even with what we have in Complete Arcane, you could have:

- abbysal: cold iron
- infernal: silver
- fey: cold iron

Adding to that, you could have:

- eladrin: cold iron
- archon: silver

Also, you could do the same for the energy resistance.

If I were to try to roll these all into one class, I'm not sure how I'd want to approach it.  Perhaps I could expand the list of invocations, but put prereqs on them depending on where you're getting your power.  I think it's more than I'd want for a balance re-write, but I think it could be a good house-rule.

[veekie]

Just a bigger list of invocations, and slap various aligned prereqs on them.

[Soda]

Is the swashbuckler's tuck and roll meant to give Dex to Ref twice? Too simulate a good Ref save?

Balance, Bluff, Escape Artist, and Sense Motive probably should become class skills too. Maybe diplomacy. Is use rope still a skill?

Typo "shielf proficiencies"

[RobbyPants]

Is the swashbuckler's tuck and roll meant to give Dex to Ref twice? Too simulate a good Ref save?

Now that you say that, I remember reading that and thinking it needed to be changed, and I forgot to bring it up.  I'd say only apply it once to Ref, so it should probably be rewritten to only apply to Fort and Will.  Does that seem about right?  Should it be just Fortitude (can you "dodge" a Will save spell)?

Also, I could probably put a note in there to have the Fort save at the bad progression and the Refelx save at the good progression.

Balance, Bluff, Escape Artist, and Sense Motive probably should become class skills too. Maybe diplomacy. Is use rope still a skill?

Good point.  I could go either way with Use Rope.  Possibly drop Ride, possibly leave it.  Drop Knowledge (History), but I'd probably keep Knowledge (Nobility).

Typo "shielf proficiencies"

Oops!

[veekie]

Use rope's hardly worth a skill IMO.

[Soda]

I'd say only apply it once to Ref, so it should probably be rewritten to only apply to Fort and Will.  Does that seem about right?  Should it be just Fortitude (can you "dodge" a Will save spell)?

I say more for melee all the way. So, good Ref and Dex to Fort and Will?

[RobbyPants]

I'd say only apply it once to Ref, so it should probably be rewritten to only apply to Fort and Will.  Does that seem about right?  Should it be just Fortitude (can you "dodge" a Will save spell)?

I say more for melee all the way. So, good Ref and Dex to Fort and Will?

I was thinking that.  I guess I can see what everyone else says.

[RobbyPants]

I wanted to discuss a quick fix for the Archivist.  I don't think it needs any huge reworking, but it needs its versatility checked.

Limiting the class to just Cleric spells will go a long way.  Now, without other divine spells, this really restricts his versatilty.  Still, I need to figure out what exactly cleric spells are.  I have two ideas:

1) Just use the Cleric list as printed in the PHB and other books, not counting domains.  This list is a lot larger than what Clerics have available per the latest changes in this project, but the archivist is limited by how much he adds to his prayer book.

2) Use the new Cleric list and all the new domain lists.  This simply makes him a book-using version of the new Cleric.  My only concern is with three spells per level per domain, the Archivist can still get ahold of some interesting combination of spells.  Still, I think it's a lot more restrictive than the way they're printed.

So, I think either approach is going to give a similar level of versatility.  The first approach limits the Archivist to spells that feel "Cleric-like".  The second approach gives him a very broad spell list, but only with a few spells to choose from in many areas.

Thoughts?

[Risada]

Personally, I think the second option would be the best... Even though Archivist will lose quite a bit of power, he will keep the fluff of "guy that knows obscure spells"...

[RobbyPants]

I think I'd need to roll one up like that and really see how he works.  Still, I think the only real attention that class needs is in a narrowed down spell list.

[Midnight_v]

I've never been comfortable with the archivist.
Either its too powerful (by dm) or no one uses it.
...or no one uses it... hmm...
I'm going to vote #2 I suppose because its cool that they can pull off oddball spell combos. Though really I've stayed away from the spellcaster talks in this project generally, the things that go wrong the most.
I really have to go and review what the Rebalaced cleric is doing now. . .

[Midnight_v]

I think I'd need to roll one up like that and really see how he works.  Still, I think the only real attention that class needs is in a narrowed down spell list.

Hmm... lets roll one up then.
I think if you narrow the spell list you shuold increase something else, because the incredible spell list was kinda absurd but minus that it was missing something. Maybe a few more uses of dark knowledge or something.
I'm gonna have to go get the book from the living room now aren't I. Curse you and your awesomeness Robbypants!
Good to work with Risada again.

[Risada]

Good to work with Risada again.

Well.... let's say I was on vacation

Back on topic...

Maybe a few more uses of dark knowledge or something.

Maybe increasing the Dark Knowledge bonuses by 1, and add a new function?

[RobbyPants]

I think if you narrow the spell list you shuold increase something else, because the incredible spell list was kinda absurd but minus that it was missing something. Maybe a few more uses of dark knowledge or something.

Possibly.  Maybe the number of Dark Knowledges granted could be adjusted, and it could be moved to a per-encounter mechanic.  It's not useful outside of combat, so it's not like it's really abusive.  Although, all that does is take some pressure off of the player for budgeting a per-day ability.

Either way, I don't think the Archivist should get a big boost in compensation, if he gets anything at all.  I always figured the reason this guy was one of the big five was a combination of being a full caster and having access to such a huge array of spells.  The only think keeping him from getting any spell he wants by RAW is a heavy-handed DM restricting how he can aquire scrolls, and I always hated that.  

Basically, the class was as useful as the DM wanted it to be.  I'd like the spells the Archivist can add for free every level and the ones he can get from scrolls should be the same.  It makes it less abusive, and makes the DM less likely to hand down stupid draconian rulings to fix a problem he doesn't truely understand.

Good to work with Risada again.

Yes!  Good to see you back Risada.

[Midnight_v]

Basically, the class was as useful as the DM wanted it to be.  I'd like the spells the Archivist can add for free every level and the ones he can get from scrolls should be the same.  It makes it less abusive, and makes the DM less likely to hand down stupid draconian rulings to fix a problem he doesn't truely understand.

True but we've never considers its class abilities in and of themselves. Getting free spells every level + spells from scrolls may or maynot be a problem. As everyone learns spells every level and scrolls again vary greatly in availability. (see dm usefulness above).

Essentially what I'm suggesting is a hard look at its powers. I like them.
I think well... maybe its a fair stand in for a bard. It's never going to have the resorces of feats and the such dedicated to it, but its open ended for growth which make is good.

Still a +1 to all its uses of dark knowledge is actually a less fair trade for being stipped of the ability to use all the spells in existance.
The per encounter thing is probbably a good consideration as well so thats 2.

[Soda]

Having cleric and druid spells is enough to make a class too good. Add in millions of spells at lower levels and the archivist is broke (balance wise and scribing scrolls into spellbook wise).

The archivist is probably the most 'balanced by DM' class, though. "You're using the spell list of what class? Oh ok, where'd you meet the 17th level cleric with the animal domain?"

I think old cleric list alone would be ok, but now that I think about it, new cleric list + domains sounds better. You still have to go find these divine scrolls and pay money, wizard style.


What is the flavor of the archivist supposed to be? He goes places to gather up all the divine spells there are, and uses his knowledge of monsters to aid in their killing?