D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[bihlbo]

Yes, how do you intend to combat the gimped feeling rogues will have when their primary combat class feature is half as good as the warlock's? Especially considering that warlocks are probably better in RAW than rogues already? If rogue SA damage can be proven to best warlock EB then 1d6/lvl seems to work.

[veekie]

Sneak Attack can be dealt to multiple creatures, or dealt in multiple hits in a single round, though that might not be enough mitigation, as it's also more difficult to employ.

[RobbyPants]

Well, Veekie is right in the multiple attacks part.  Now, I'll admit that I suggested a blast shape invocation for the warlock that lets him full-attack with his EB.  Even still, he cannot TWF with it.  That being said, let's compare raw EB damage to raw SA damage at various levels.  We'll make the following assumptions:

1) The rogue is using TWF
2) Because of other fixes in this project, Improved and Greater TWF are all rolled into one feat (so the rogue gets the benifits immediately at BAB +6 and +11)
3) The warlock is using a blast shape invocation I created called Eldritch Assault that lets him make a full attack with his EB (maximum damage against a single target)

[spoiler=lots of numbers!]
Blue = Winner
Black = Tie
Red = Loser

Level 1:
Warlock: 1d6
Rogue: 2 attacks @ 1d6 -> 2d6

Level 2:
Warlock: 2d6
Rogue: 2 attacks @ 1d6 -> 2d6

Level 3:
Warlock: 3d6
Rogue: 2 attacks @ 2d6 -> 4d6


Level 4:
Warlock: 4d6
Rogue: 2 attacks @ 2d6 -> 4d6

Level 5:
Warlock: 5d6
Rogue: 2 attacks @ 3d6 -> 6d6

Level 6:
Warlock: 6d6
Rogue: 2 attacks @ 3d6 -> 6d6

Level 7:
Warlock: 7d6
Rogue: 2 attacks @ 4d6 -> 8d6


*** +6 BAB = extra attack ***

Level 8:
Warlock: 2 attacks @ 8d6 -> 16d6
Rogue: 4 attacks @ 4d6 -> 16d6

Level 9:
Warlock: 2 attacks @ 9d6 -> 18d6
Rogue: 4 attacks @ 5d6 -> 20d6

Level 10:
Warlock: 2 attacks @ 10d6 -> 20d6
Rogue: 4 attacks @ 5d6 -> 20d6

Level 11:
Warlock: 2 attacks @ 11d6 -> 22d6
Rogue: 4 attacks @ 6d6 -> 24d6

Level 12:
Warlock: 2 attacks @ 12d6 -> 24d6
Rogue: 4 attacks @ 6d6 -> 24d6

Level 13:
Warlock: 2 attacks @ 13d6 -> 26d6
Rogue: 4 attacks @ 7d6 -> 28d6

Level 14:
Warlock: 2 attacks @ 14d6 -> 28d6
Rogue: 4 attacks @ 7d6 -> 28d6


*** +11 BAB = extra attack ***

Level 15:
Warlock: 3 attacks @ 15d6 -> 45d6
Rogue: 6 attacks @ 8d6 -> 48d6

Level 16:
Warlock: 3 attacks @ 16d6 -> 48d6
Rogue: 6 attacks @ 8d6 -> 48d6

Level 17:
Warlock: 3 attacks @ 17d6 -> 51d6
Rogue: 6 attacks @ 9d6 -> 54d6

Level 18:
Warlock: 3 attacks @ 18d6 -> 54d6
Rogue: 6 attacks @ 9d6 -> 54d6

Level 19:
Warlock: 3 attacks @ 19d6 -> 57d6
Rogue: 6 attacks @ 10d6 -> 60d6

Level 20:
Warlock: 3 attacks @ 20d6 -> 60d6
Rogue: 6 attacks @ 10d6 -> 60d6[/spoiler]

All in all, they look fairly well lined up.  This shouldn't be too surprising, as the rogue gets double the attacks, but the warlock deals double the base damage.  The rogue comes out ahead at the odd numbered levels because that's when his damage increases, and he already has his extra attack(s).

I know that EB is a touch attack and works against crit-immune creatures, but at this point, I'm comparing raw damage.  Did I miss anything obvious?

[RobbyPants]

A question from the compendium:

Did you consider adding the 2pp per psywar level? A minor change that make it a bit more playable without resorting to shennanigans.

Did you mean a cumulative 2 pp per level on top of what they get (+2 more at level 1, +4 more at level 2, etc...)?

Just for reference, here's what that would look like on a table (assuming I can add):

Level  old PP  new PP
1      0       2
2      1       5
3      3       9
4      5       13
5      7       17
6      11      23
7      15      29
8      19      35
9      23      41
10     27      47
11     35      57
12     43      67
13     51      77
14     59      87
15     67      97
16     79      111
17     91      125
18     103     139
19     115     153
20     127     167

[Midnight_v]

Yeah. I guess so.
Something about it seems fuzzy but yeah basically 167 at 20 as opposed to 127
This would make a squarely tier 3 psywar on board with the T.o.b. boys. as oppossed to just barely making it in.

[RobbyPants]

What do you mean "something seems fuzzy"?  Just that you didn't remember all the middle numbers?

[Midnight_v]

What do you mean "something seems fuzzy"?  Just that you didn't remember all the middle numbers?

Yeah exactly. At the time I proposed it I had a clear number in my mind and I guess thats what I meant cause I rember thinking 167 is better than 127 but doesn't push them into a realm where they're threatning the "Full manifesters" who have like 260 or so.
I just couldn't remember all the middle numbers, no.
 

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, if nobody else has any objections, I can go for this.

[RobbyPants]

I've seen the Dragon Shaman mentioned several times, so I got to thinking about it.

I wouldn't consider this a whole fix, but part of a larger fix.  Since we've decided to increase the warlock's Eldritch Blast damage to 1d6 per class level (the numbers for this are in this post), I was thinking, why not do the same for the dragon shaman?

Basically, their breath weapon would do double the damage listed in the PHB2.  They still have an AoE shape, which allows for more targets, but it's only usable every 1d4 rounds.  So, that last factor keeps this from being their primary mode of attack, but at least it makes it worth a standard action for anything other than hordes of mooks whose CR is half your level.

Thoughts?

[RobbyPants]

Something I'd forgotten I'd added to the warlock a while ago: +Cha mod to Eldritch Blast damage (minimum +1).

Personally, I don't feel this is necessary now that we've increase the EB damage to 1d6 per warlock level.  It's a pretty small increase that will only be noticable for the first level or two, and the warlock doesn't need a bump at this point.  At these low levels, the warlock's staying power give it a nice advantage over casters with only two first level spell slots.

I did make cantrips at-will, and I increase the damage of Ray of Frost (and similar spells) to 1d6 to make low-level arcane casters more interseting.  So, while this makes them warlock-like, they still have a shorter range ("close") and they are a typed energy.  Also, they don't scale, so they are really intended for low-level use.

So, my vote is to remove the bonus Cha damage.

[veekie]

No need for the cha mod damage anymore with the change in damage progression proper, I think.

[StormingMarcus]

+1.
With 20d6 of damage, i don't think a slight bonus (+Cha modifier) would make a sensible difference.

[VennDygrem]

I've seen the Dragon Shaman mentioned several times, so I got to thinking about it.

I wouldn't consider this a whole fix, but part of a larger fix.  Since we've decided to increase the warlock's Eldritch Blast damage to 1d6 per class level (the numbers for this are in this post), I was thinking, why not do the same for the dragon shaman?

Basically, their breath weapon would do double the damage listed in the PHB2.  They still have an AoE shape, which allows for more targets, but it's only usable every 1d4 rounds.  So, that last factor keeps this from being their primary mode of attack, but at least it makes it worth a standard action for anything other than hordes of mooks whose CR is half your level.

Thoughts?

Well, I always thought the idea was not to balance against more powerful classes, but to find a middle ground of power for all the classes to play at (Any class dealing 60d6 damage seems ridiculous, rogue included). As such, the Dragon Shaman's focus is not entirely on his breath weapon, like the Dragonfire Adept's is, since it's usable 1d4 rounds. It's a fun, flavorful ability to use between rounds of pounding on enemies, giving you the ability to take on more than one enemy if you position yourself right, though that doesn't mean it should be weak, either. How much damage is the Dragon Shaman doing with his melee attacks at a certain level versus his breath weapon? What's the sweet spot on damage? How much damage should a PC be doing at level 20, etc.?

I'm fairly happy with my rewrite of the Dragon Shaman, though it could always be tweaked. Haven't gotten any feedback, positive or negative, but yesterday was a busy day for people so I'm in no rush. I do plan on playtesting it immediately, though.

[RobbyPants]

Okay, I think I can safely remove the +Cha to EB damage from the warlock.

Well, I always thought the idea was not to balance against more powerful classes, but to find a middle ground of power for all the classes to play at (Any class dealing 60d6 damage seems ridiculous, rogue included).

Really, I think the worst part about 60d6 damage would be physically rolling that many dice, and then running through a 60-part small addition problem.  In terms of actual damage, it only averages to 210 damage.

How much damage is the Dragon Shaman doing with his melee attacks at a certain level versus his breath weapon?

Well, a straight dragon shaman will have 3/4 BAB and simple weapon proficiency.  Let's say he wants to fight in melee without dipping out or taking a new weapon.  The easiest way to increase the damage is to take Power Attack and use a two-handed weapon (the spear will do nicely, and the long spear has reach).

So, not even counting weapon damage, you can do 2 points of damage per penalty you take to hit.  So, given a 3/4 BAB, that works out to 1.5 damage per level, per attack of bonus damage.  The current breath weapon is 1d6 every two levels, which works out to 3.5 damage on average per two levels.

Basically, Power Attack (on just a single attack) is dealing about the same damage as the breath weapon.  Obviously, you have to be able to hit, so taking a full penalty might not be the best approach.  Still, taking Shock Trooper allows you to take this penalty to AC if you want.  I know this isn't the best route for a dragon shaman to be taking, but I just wanted to point out that it's not that hard to out pace the breath weapon with even poorly specialized melee.

What's the sweet spot on damage? How much damage should a PC be doing at level 20, etc.?

I don't have a good answer here, but it's dependant on a lot of factors.  Different types of monsters might need to be taken down in other ways than simple HP damage.

If you look at some CR 20 creatures, they have some pretty high average HP totals.  Just some quick ones:

Balor - 290
Pit Fiend - 225
Old red dragon - 378
Wyrm black dragon - 459
Tarrasque - 858 (a bit contrived, yes )

Anyway, on average, 210 won't one-shot any of these guys.  Also, that's assuming you're able to get to them and able to actually hit with all of your attacks.  Most creatures by this point have quite a few fallback tactics, and won't simply run up toe-to-toe and melee with you.

[VennDygrem]

Right. So I suppose the key to finding how much damage a straight-up damage-dealer should be able to do is dependent on the make-up of his party, and how many rounds it should take to bring down said creature. My current Dragon Shaman build averages 55 damage (vs. the default's 35) at level 20, which is a lot better, but not on par with what, say, a wizard or rogue could do. Though, I've also given it several natural attack, and at level 20, assuming the character took Multiattack and Improved MA, would get about 6 attacks in a full-round attack (3 bites, 2 claws, 1 tail), all at +15 BAB (compared to a full-BAB class like fighter, which would have at least 4 attacks, at 20/15/10/5, or more with the two-weapon chain). However, said melee damage is pretty low, too, averaging roughly 50 damage in that full-attack.

How do most martial characters keep in line with the wizard's damage? Well, we all know that unless we're talking about the rogue, most of them don't.

Being that the breath weapon is only every 1d4 rounds, with modifiers from metabreath feats etc., I think it's safe to say that the damage can be improved drastically in order to bring it up to snuff.
----
The question is, would I just keep it as d6's, or also keep improving the die as I have, from d6>d8>d10? At level 20, that would make the average breath weapon damage 110 every 1d4 rounds.

[RobbyPants]

How do most martial characters keep in line with the wizard's damage? Well, we all know that unless we're talking about the rogue, most of them don't.

Well, Power Attack is usually the key to getting your damage up pretty high.  Even still, at 20th level, you're looking at +40 damage per attack, which isn't that much.

However, you can start adding other things on to make this much higher.  Just some examples:

The Leap Attack feat gives you double the return when you charge, so you get 4 points of damage per attack penalty, getting 80 points on one attack when charging.

Complete Champion has an ACF for the barbarian that gives Pounce at 1st level, allowing for a full attack on a charge (works great with Leap Attack).  Do note that I've pushed this back to 6th level in this project.

The Shock Trooper feat has a maneuver called Heedless Charge that lets you take the penalty to AC instead of your attack roll, so you don't have to sacrifice accuracy.

So, you tack all those togeter, and you can charge, make a full attack with no attack penalty and add 80 damage to each attack, but you suffer -20 AC.


To bring this even Further, the Frenzied Berzerker class was particularly designed just for this.  By getting Improved and Supreme Power Attack, you get six points of damage per attack penalty (figuring in Leap Attack), for +120 damage per attack.  On top of that, you get Deathless Frenzy, which keeps you from dying from HP damage during your frenzy, so the -20 AC doesn't hurt so much.  That, and you can use Rage and Frenzy on top of eachother for a hefty Str bonus (well over +10).

[Midnight_v]

There is no tru "average damage" or "sweet spot" because... frankly optimization is possible. And inevitable, so you know thats whats up, but to appoximate...

   I throw out there that there are things like SoD's still but again I point to the ToB (the assumed power level we once were shooting for) and I see the 9th level strikes, and its probbably some very impressive number as Stike of perfect clarity does +100 damage + whatever other damage you're coming up with.. and Feral death blow kills you outright or adds 20d6 to your attack Just to keep things in perspective.
These are the general damage ranges we're talking about. Prolly 150 + on average

[StormingMarcus]

Regarding hexblades, what about armor invoking? Like armor spellcasting, but the hexblade does not suffer ASF when using invocations. It could be in light, medium & shields (or also heavy).

[Midnight_v]

Regarding hexblades, what about armor invoking? Like armor spellcasting, but the hexblade does not suffer ASF when using invocations. It could be in light, medium & shields (or also heavy).

Already taken care of, hexblades won't have ASF up to med... then you can take that feat that lets you cast in fullplate or whatever, but I'm moving them away from the invocation idea. Just a corrected spell progression and full caster level, looks to be balancing nicely, but I'm playtesting throughout the week. That and... I'm just trying to get it to be a complete work so by sunday I'll have it all ready for disection.

[Midnight_v]

I've seen the Dragon Shaman mentioned several times, so I got to thinking about it.

I wouldn't consider this a whole fix, but part of a larger fix.  Since we've decided to increase the warlock's Eldritch Blast damage to 1d6 per class level (the numbers for this are in this post), I was thinking, why not do the same for the dragon shaman?

Basically, their breath weapon would do double the damage listed in the PHB2.  They still have an AoE shape, which allows for more targets, but it's only usable every 1d4 rounds.  So, that last factor keeps this from being their primary mode of attack, but at least it makes it worth a standard action for anything other than hordes of mooks whose CR is half your level.

Thoughts?

I'm really interested in this, I've never played a dragon shaman, and It doesnt' look like they have a handbook, anyone actually drive on of those things?