D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[veekie]

Well, how about Tiny/Dimunitive elementals for summon monster 1 and 2? Elementals are one of the easiest creatures to advance/regress, they have practically no special abilities to speak of, so it's just a matter of size, HD and stats.

Fairly sure they aren't any more effective than the celestial/fiendish animals available at the same level. And they're cute!

[RobbyPants]

All in all, I think you're right.  The DCs for things like Burn all follow the usual formula (10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod).  We could scale back sizes of things like whirlwind and vortex. 

The only other issue is Hit Dice.  A small elemental already has 2 HD.  So, a tiny would probably have 1 HD.  What about diminutive?  1/2 HD?

[veekie]

That seems fine. 1/2 HD it is.

[ZeroSum]

Oooh... Level 0 for a Fine Elemental?  They're not much good except for being cute...

[veekie]

Naw, 1/4, it's a cute little walking candle fire. Makes one hell of a spy hiding in a lantern.

EDIT: Makes one hell of a firestarter too, it'd set the whole house on fire before the cat stomps on it...and promptly catches fire.

[RobbyPants]

Well, here's a quick write-up, based off of the small elementals, and the rough progressions of the other sizes.  I'm sure it could use some tweaking.  They seem awefully weak.


Air

            Diminutive              Tiny
___________________________________________________________
Hit Dice:   1/2d8 (2 hp)            1d8 (4 hp)
Attack:     Slam +1 (1d3-2)         Slam +2 (1d4-1)
Saves:      F+0, R+3, W+0           F+0, R+4, W+0
Abilities:  Str 6, Dex 13, Con 10,  Str 8, Dex 15, Con 10,
            Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11   Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
DC:         10                      10
Whirlwind:  1d2, 10ft               1d3 10-15ft

Earth

            Diminutive              Tiny
___________________________________________________________
Hit Dice:   1/2d8 (2 hp)            1d8+1 (5 hp)
Attack:     Slam +1 (1d3+1)         Slam +2 (1d4+2)
Saves:      F+2, R-1, W+0           F+3, R-1, W+0
Abilities:  Str 13, Dex 8, Con 11,  Str 15, Dex 8, Con 13,
            Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11   Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11

Fire

            Diminutive                Tiny
___________________________________________________________
Hit Dice:   1/2d8 (2 hp)              1d8 (4 hp)
Attack:     Slam +1 (1d2-2 +1d2 fire) Slam +1 (1d3-1 +1d3 fire)
Saves:      F+0, R+3, W+0             F+0, R+3, W+0
Abilities:  Str 6, Dex 13, Con 10,    Str 8, Dex 13, Con 10,
            Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11     Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
DC:         10                        10

Water

            Diminutive              Tiny
___________________________________________________________
Hit Dice:   1/2d8 (2 hp)            1d8+1 (5 hp)
Attack:     Slam +0 (1d3)           Slam +1 (1d4+1)
Saves:      F+2, R-1, W+0           F+3, R+0, W+0
Abilities:  Str 10, Dex 8, Con 11,  Str 12, Dex 10, Con 13,
            Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11   Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
DC:         10                      11
Vortex:     1d2, 10ft               1d3 10-15ft

[veekie]

Well, they might be pretty fragile, but they have decent ACs compared to the other summonses of their level, and the X masteries should bring their hit rate up to scratch. Plus Fire has Burn(which btw, you have the DC and damage missing), making it an interesting suicide summons(it appears, hits the enemy, dealing burn, gets hit, dies, but burns it's opponent again), while Air, Water and Earth have unmatched maneuverability in their domain(nothing else that level flies as fast as Air, swims as fast as Water, or can move through solid rock at all).

[RobbyPants]

Good point.

I didn't put DCs for anything up, but it would be easy enough to add in.

[SiggyDevil]

Now, while we have all 4 types out an plain for all to see, does anyone agree with me that they look damned similar?

Like so similar that one might as well have a universal "elemental class" and just pick abilities as needed?

I'll make one or help make one if anyone else thinks it could work.

[AndyJames]

What are you thinking?  X per day or per encounter abilities?  Probably not at will, compared to the other three elements powers.

5/day.

[SiggyDevil]

With battle-changing powers, I'd rather see a per-encounter.

It's not exactly game-breaking to use Gust of Wind but an elemental that burns through all of its daily uses of powers is pretty much just a fancy punching bag with arms attached, after those first 2-3 battles or so.

Go for lower intensity of powers, more frequency.

[RobbyPants]

That makes it more warlock-like, but I guess the warlock is closer to the tier I want than the casters currently are...

[RobbyPants]

Is the boost to the sorcerer last page too much?  I don't want to go nuts with it, but I want there to be a reason to take the class to 20th level.  This helps justify full-casting PrCs.  If you have to make a choice, it makes said PrCs less of a no-brainer.

I'd like to do something to the wizard and cleric without boosting the shit out of them.  I'm still hoping that some good spell balancing will reduce the caster's strength, but if it's not reduced enough, then I obviously can't go around adding in more class features.

What kinds of things can you think of adding to the cleric and the wizard to make the base class more attarctive and less bland?  I'm actually fine with these abilities not kicking in until mid to high levels, which is ultimately what you sacrifice if you PrC out.  Really, the first five to seven levels don't need much of a boost.

[Elennsar]

Well, I'm not sure about Wizards, but for clerics...

Make domain really matter. A war cleric gets combat I-kick-your butt, a fire cleric gets all sorts of flaming goodies, etc.

[RobbyPants]

If I go the route you're suggesting, perhaps the granted domain powers get better at higher levels (10, 15, and 20, maybe?).

[Elennsar]

Its not so much "better" (though that might help), its that they'er a minor impact on what a cleric can do.

I'd rather have less raw power (spellcasting) and have my domain be a bigger piece of my abilities.


I know, I know, rebalancing, not rewriting.

But +4 caster level with Good spells is dreadfully dull.

[veekie]

If I go the route you're suggesting, perhaps the granted domain powers get better at higher levels (10, 15, and 20, maybe?).

Get some more interesting abilities rather than scaling up existing benefits is best I think. Besides, some of the existing ones either shouldn't be scaled, or are unscalable.

[RobbyPants]

I agree with that.  I didn't clearly state my intention.  If I get a chance, I might write a few up later.

[Elennsar]

May the Emperor make it so.

Now here's a question. If clerics are domain-based to a larger degree, what do wizards have? Same principle applies...cool abilities beat just having spells.

[Midnight_v]

Pointedly ignoring the cleric talk.

May the Emperor make it so.

Now here's a question. If clerics are domain-based to a larger degree, what do wizards have? Same principle applies...cool abilities beat just having spells.

Not really. Spells are the abilities. Its kind self explanatory. Each level you get a new set of abilities usable perday. These are called spells. You get to select them from a variety of sources etc...etc...etc...
Eventually you'll join a guild or become an archmage, giving them more on top of thier already existing class abilities is the way of pazio, that is the way of fail.
The only thing that would make sense is to make the last 5 levels of wizard. . . the Archmage prc. . . that way people won't bitch about "being forced to prc" or whine about "not being rewarded for staying single class".
They'll still be tier one though