D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Midnight_v]

1) I do acknowledge tier 3. I do not acknowledge that "this is tier 3" means anything until and unless something brought to that level really can do tier 3 level of power.

If a fighter can reliably beat anything at 10th level when he's 10th level, except other fighters, that's not balanced. That's just stronger.



3a) And we do need to do some testing, rather than "hey, class feature that might be useful instead one that is definately meaningless." Can't know if it is balanced until we know if it actually plays out as balanced.

3b) Not just the power of spells, the fact that they get many options from spells. Magic can do anything as written. So even if a given spell doesn't break the game, a given mage (druid, cleric, sorcerer, wizard, wu jen, etc.) still can.

1. I'm not sure what you mean there please explain futher, do you mean like "the Rebalanced fighter isn't tier 3 because he's still not equivalent to the warblade." cause thats what I'm taking you to mean as an example.
2. Sp wait let me MAKE SURE I know what you're saying:
2) No, it still does. A. The druid's spellcasting ability is quite sufficient to make them able to overcome others,
B.with or without wild shape,
C. and probably without an animal companion.
D. Particularly if shape shifting is used as a replacement of those two rather than them being simply dropped.
Okay so If I'm getting this right ultimately you think the drud is balaced at tier 3 with its spells and shapeshift. This is reason enough to wait until we see what the changes are to the spells, we have no good reference to for determine that until the spellbook closes so to speak.
Also i just out right disagree with you about that.. but okay. Do a write up of your druid and maybe a analysis so we can see exaclty what you think it should be. I await the progression.

3.A. Again you're reiterating what I've already stated. However, Some of the mechanics that we've added have been directly ported from other systems that we've played "Foil" for instance is from the tome series, so most of us have a pretty good reference for saying This works, this doesn't, this is balanced this is not.
Further... since you've only known about the existance of the Shapeshift variant druid for 1 day, by your own logic you're saying "I don't know if its balanced" or you're admit that you're talking out your ass about it for question 2 of you post Because wha you're saying is meaningless in regard to it.
You've never played it, you've only learned about it yesterday, and we had to practically BEG you to go look up what we were talking about so you'd at least have a minimal frame of reference. Now you've looked at it and say "Oh well it should be enough" but thats just saying what you've described above.

And we do need to do some testing, rather than "hey, class feature that might be useful instead one that is definately meaningless."

No. No, Elennsar, you need to do sometesting on this one to get up to speed with the rest of the class. You've never Shapeshift so therfore what you're saying above is meaningless. By your own definitions.

3b. Okay, what do you mean, by power? To me Power = Valid options , in this game 3bA as a statment doesn't really say anything... except maybe you want to limit the options(Power) of spells.

Though I'm realize now whey people keep telling you "Play 4th" thats a very 4th edition thing you suggest there.
Limit the options spells give you. . . *shrug*
Where do you draw the line? Do we then end up with everyone playing evokers?

Ignore that. Here "IN 3b, what is your definition of power? As it clearly is different from my own. What do you mean by power in that sentance?"

[Elennsar]

Okay, to clarify the unclear:

1) I am uncertain if the fighter is equal to the warblade.

2) I don't think the druid is balanced with other classes at tier 3 even if it loses both wild shape and animal companion (with no replacement). It is certainly not balanced if they are replaced, even if the replacement is weaker than the existing class feature/s.

I don't play druids. I do know that they overshadow what I do play. That needs to be dealt with. Having a druid able to beat/draw a fighter (for instance) is fine, having a druid be able to beat/draw all other encounters as well (or even most other encounters) is not fine. No one class or class combination should have the power to make any encounter of its level lose.

3) Does that mean that the result is balanced? No. Just because a given mechanic is balanced doesn't mean the overall class is.

4) No, you did not. If you want me to read something, ASK. It is extremely simple. Any difficulties you went through are because you were unwilling to actually cooperate and be helpful instead of just insist that you know what you're talking about and I don't.

5) Make it so that being a mage does not mean "I can do anything." because magic means "I can do anything" as written, and that needs to go.

So be an Evoker. Be an Illusionist. Be a Disciple of Order. Be a Necromancer.

Be whatever you please that's permited in the game. But being an Evoker should not be better overall than being an Illusionist or vice-versa.

They should be different. Same as how being a Fighter should not be better overall than a Paladin. Or a Barbarian/Ranger.

6) Power = I can do 20d6 damage with my spell of fighter slaying.
Even if you tone that down, if a wizard can do (and endure) damage equivalant to a fighter, sneak and do trap and lock things like a rogue, and so on...he's too powerful as a class.

A wizard (or cleric or sorcerer or druid) should not have the "I use the spell of solving the problem in front of me". Whether that's one given spell or having many spells that he knows that means any given problem can be met with the right spell, and he can know the right spell for all the problems...

He is too powerful. There ought to be things fighters lose to. And things that rogues lose to. And things that clerics lose to. Some things they can beat, too. Some things that they are evenly (or as close to evenly as we can get) matched against.

That way, you need a rogue to do rogue things, a fighter to do fighter things, a wizard to do wizard things, and a cleric to do cleric things...instead of having the wizard do all three of the others and/or the cleric doing all three of the others.

[Midnight_v]

) No, you did not. If you want me to read something, ASK. It is extremely simple. Any difficulties you went through are because you were unwilling to actually cooperate and be helpful instead of just insist that you know what you're talking about and I don't.

Page 44 of this thread is almost entirely composed of people saying

Wildshape is different from shapeshift. Stop muddling the issue.
 We're not talking about wildshape.
Do you know what we're talking about? Shapeshift Variant, Phb 2 page 38. Please Review.

Thats the main idea of page 44 that and pointing out that you refuse to cooperate with that as an example.

I'm not a dick to you because I think your wrong (and I do), but because you actually ignore things like that. Everyone talking about a specific change you're refusing to play ball. You're just too stubborn, I say you do that with sunic in the Logic fail thread. You and Sunic got into it on a tangent. Everyone else was like if this is a specific debate then it doesn't belong here. Stubbornly you refused to leave. . . I think because you wanted the thread closed. So I'm a dick to you because I feel you're unsportsmanlike. Insults along with logic, Okay on the internet. Doing shit to intentionally get a thread closed unsportsmanlike.
Diverting an entire thread to stop what they're talking about to get you on board with everyone else: Unsportsman like.

But enough pontificating...

That way, you need a rogue to do rogue things, a fighter to do fighter things, a wizard to do wizard things, and a cleric to do cleric things...instead of having the wizard do all three of the others and/or the cleric doing all three of the others.

The Rouge/Fighter/Wizard/Cleric dynamic... is gone. So thats a vast disagreement probablly.
Why do I say this?
Because we have 54  or so base character classes. Every class has someone whose in love with it. I tried to get rid of monk: People out raged, I tried to merge scout and ranger: People outraged.
At that point I say fine, let me look at the 54.
But first ....e ven in  original 3.5
Fighter/wizard/rogue/cleric
Had to be replaceable with,
Paladin/Sorceror/Monk or Bard/Druid
OR
Barbarian/Sorceror/Ranger/Druid
Moreover, currently, now when we have vastly esoteric classe combinations like: Swordsage/Factotum/Archivist/Dread Necromancer.
and multiclassed variations therof *which you have some very unpopular ideas about as far as can tell*

  The idea set of the "Core 4" is broke open already by the sheer number of classes that already exists.
The core 4 aren't needed to fufill those roles,  Roll fufillment ... you need a new paradigm.

Cause what are "cleric like things" when I worship the "God of Night and fear"
or what are "rogue like things" when I can become invisible+fly or even if I'm a fighter/wizard Acting as an assassin with just enough wizard to not have to hide.
That concept doesn't fit anymore. . . I'm not sure it ever really did the point is that
Everyone has to able to "deal with" around 70-90% of the level appropriate encounters. Or only the classes that do will get played.
"By deal with" I mean... Have a way to deal not defeat outright.
...
I don't want to have preprogrammed character concepts.
 I want everyone to be able to be who they want to be as exactly as they want within a level based system.
Archtypes are more important than what the class itself does.

I'm a Knight In shining armor, fighting from horse back could be anything.
... and actually ... thats good for the game. Many paths to many destinations.
The problem is that some of the destinations are inherently in need of help.

6) Power = I can do 20d6 damage with my spell of fighter slaying.
Even if you tone that down, if a wizard can do (and endure) damage equivalant to a fighter, sneak and do trap and lock things like a rogue, and so on...he's too powerful as a class.

and I know that your definition of "Power" is wrong. Power= 20d6?  Thats you defintion of power? God 
someone help this guy!
We have a base assumption problem. Everyone else here is working off a different assuption about D&D that you.

Does anyone else veiw
6) Power = I can do 20d6 damage with my spell of fighter slaying.
Maybe at 10th level, but I know what you mean.
Damage < Power

[RobbyPants]

I'm not really sure where we're at with the druid right now.  I'm still a fan of the shapeshift ACF, but I think it's a bit too weak.  I was thinking about expanding on it a bit, allowing the forms to grant several abilities as you increase in level.  I also want the elemental form to be a little more element-specific.  Lastly, I'll add in an aquatic form or two.  Hopefully I can get it posted soon.

... and really I tend to agree...
I'd like to see the changes. . .

I'll try to get something up soon.  Basically, I'll use the PHB 2 as a starting point, and add from there.  The initial abilities might even be the same for some of the lower level forms.  I just want to see them scale more than that one crappy ability they always get two levels later.

[Elennsar]

No, that is me refusing to humor your "let's mock Elennsar". When you're saying "let's change this thing that we're suggesting that we change the existing class feature to", my goal was to find out what the resulting ability looks like. As stated "if it is like the ____ but we added ____.", I'd just look it up. If it is entirely different, looking it up would be absolutely useless.

As for the debate: I refuse to have a debate on whether or not someone is lying about what I said when they are doing so. If it is a matter of "whether my point was right to begin with", that can go to another thread. If it is someone lying about what I said or insisting that their misinterpetation of what I said is the truth and being a dick about it, then that should be shot down in and/or with flames. Not treated as a perfectly legitimate thing to argue about.

The only things I am stubborn and unyielding about are my belief that human perception is at best what we think is true, which may or may not be what is actually true, and that morality cannot be changed by humanity wishing it was different than it is. Neither of those have anything to do with this thread or that thread.

Rogue/fighter/cleric/ranger/wizard/monk/warblade/your momma/etc. Being a fighter should mean you do whatever it is fighters are supposed to do well and not so well. Being a warblade should be different.

Having ten classes that do the same thing is a waste of paper and ink. Having thirty classes that each do something different so that if you want to do a given something you pick the class that does that something is none too many.

So, what are cleric like things? What are clerics supposed to do? What justifies a cleric class as opposed to fluff text over a wizard/sorcerer/psion/wu jen/shugenja/I could go on? If there's an answer, then it should be kept. If there isn't an answer, it is redundant.

Does that mean that we need to use the "core four"? Hardly! It means that every class should have some thing it does that makes being a member of that class a good idea. Being a paladin is good if you want to be an effective fiend slayer. Being a warblade is good if you want to be able to take on lots of enemies at once. Whatever.

Otherwise, why do we have a swashbuckler if it is using different rules to get exactly the same game effect as a fighter? (I don't think that's the goal of Robby's current form, fortunately.)

Briefly: "I can 20d6 damage with my spell. I can summon a dragon. I can cast an illusion. I can mind control you. I can use sleep." etc, etc, etc.

The reason for using "I do 20d6 damage" is that it most directly compares to a fighter's "I can do 1d8+X times the number of times I hit in a round.", not because it is the only thing wizards can do or should be able to do or because it is a good option to do.

Being able to do 20d6 with a 5th level spell is powerful. Being able to diplomatically manipulate anyone you can talk to into doing your will is powerful.

"My spell of fighter slaying" was mentioned as a specific spell being powerful (or not). It was not meant, and I will repeat this until you recognize that I said it, as an arguement in favor of "I use direct damage" as the best/only/ideal option for wizards. However, it is one of their options.

Robby: Do druids need this ability to scale in order to be tier 3? Do they need this ability at all, for that matter?

I'm not against shape shifting druids (other than personal taste, which is not relevant) whether that means wild shape or shape shift, but they really don't need both that and full casting if they're Tier 3...which is either dominant in one area and not useless outside it or useful in many areas...not the current I-am-dominant-in-many(all?)-areas.

[RobbyPants]

6) Power = I can do 20d6 damage with my spell of fighter slaying.
Even if you tone that down, if a wizard can do (and endure) damage equivalant to a fighter, sneak and do trap and lock things like a rogue, and so on...he's too powerful as a class.

You're probably going to be pissed that i've already beefed up direct damage spells in the spells thread (right in the 3rd post).  That 20d6 is probably a bit closer to 20d6+100 now, assuming it's a 9th level spell.

[Elennsar]

Well, given that they generally are bad wizard choices (pre house rules), I'm filing that with "hit points/damage are insane" rather than "Robby, why did you do that stupid thing?"

Though it does make me wonder what fighters can do that make them useful beyond "guy who takes damage before I do" meatshielding.

I've been wondering that anyway, since the revised fighter doesn't clearly indicate "what his area of I-can-pull-my-own-weight is"...its more powerful than the existing fighter, but I'm not sure it isn't still made redundant.

[Midnight_v]

6) Power = I can do 20d6 damage with my spell of fighter slaying.
Even if you tone that down, if a wizard can do (and endure) damage equivalant to a fighter, sneak and do trap and lock things like a rogue, and so on...he's too powerful as a class.

You're probably going to be pissed that i've already beefed up direct damage spells in the spells thread (right in the 3rd post).  That 20d6 is probably a bit closer to 20d6+100 now, assuming it's a 9th level spell.

- As long as I know I have the ear of the Gameologists, I suppose what Elennsar says doesn't matter that much.
However, of that block of text, a page of you being ignorant doesn't humor me or refuse to humor me. It just make you look like you dont' know what you're talking about. You didn't know what Shapeshift was before yesterday, and you refused to even listen to realize we were talking about something else, now you lying about it. It's okay to not know shit but when told where something is and you need to look it up to understad at least the Base of what changes we're talking about is not me mocking you it trying to get you informed so you stop dragging down the thread. Thats how I was saying you fail the thread. You post more than anyone else here and, have little familiarity with the berth of the game.
and  This:

Rogue/fighter/cleric/ranger/wizard/monk/warblade/your momma/etc. Being a fighter should mean you do whatever it is fighters are supposed to do well and not so well. Being a warblade should be different.

 Well... for 1 that's a pretty much opionion filled statment. Again, saying what a class "should" do is about as undefined and subjective as we get. 
2. Why? Why should they be different?
3. The statment is obejectively wrong, cause in every venue imaginable there is variation of the same thing to get a job done. Sometimes the competetion ends with one being better/more popular than the other.
Ford/Chevy/Porsche/BMW
Coke/Pepsi/Dr.Pepper.
Monarchy, Democracy, Facisism
...
Warblades and fighter play the same game in every way but the way that counts performance. So what we're supposed be doing is changing the performance of these things, WITHOUT repenning the entire game. Or even the majority of the game really

  Though really El this isn't about that, between you and I and many others.

This is about your perception of the game and what it should be vs "OUR" perception of the game and what it should be and you fighting saying "My opinon is just as Valid!" and almost unilaterally people saying "No, it's really not",
 Here realizing that you fail in that, make as many changes as possible thus cicumventing changing everyones opinion, and getting your way anyway.
So basically I declare war. I fortunately just have enough time everyday suddenly to sit and post as much as you do or more so I will but I frankly make my stand here.
You're in my opinion against progress, in the direction we're moving and I am the same vs. you and I'd gladly challenge you to a duel of wits and settle it elsewhere if you'd like to stop posting in this thread and settle our grievence once and for all, but since I know you'll refuse, Even if its a point based nondirectly-insulting debate.
We're stuck fighting here.
So.. fine but you'll get no peace, and you're about to find yourself responding primarily to me or people who listen to me throughout  until such time as you decide to come to terms.
So... welcome back nemesis...
Shall we begin again.

Or we could alternatively continue in Pm if you prefer.

[RobbyPants]

Okay!  At long last, here are my new shapeshift rules!  For the most part, they're the same as the PHB 2, but I've added a few abilities to each form as they gain levels.  Also, I modified the four elemental forms quite a bit.  I included a new version of Natural Spell at the end.  One last thing of note is that your magical gear is still functional when melded into your form.  You cannot use items the require manipulation (like potions, wands, scrolls, etc), but other "passive" items still function.

So, long post is loooong!


Shapeshift                           

You can shapeshift into an animal or other aspect of nature determined by the forms available to you.  Each form grants you special abilities.  You may choose the specific appearance of your form, but the granted abilities are always the same for each specific form.  You can shapeshift as a swift action.  There is no limit to the number of times per day you can shapeshift, nor the amount of time you can spend in a shapeshifted form.

You retain your normal Hit Dice, hit points, base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks regardless of your form.  You also retain your normal ability scores, though each form grants a bonus to your Strength score.

You keep all extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part your new form does not have.

All of your held and worn gear melds into your new form.  Any armor or shield bonus granted by your armor is lost.  All of your magical gear remains fully functional, although items requiring manipulation, such as scrolls, potions, wands, and staves cannot be used in your new form.  You still gain the enhancement bonus granted by any magical armor or shields you were wearing before shapeshifting.

You cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components when shapeshifted.  You can use the Natural Spell feat (see below) to help overcome this obstacle.

When you shapeshift into a form other than your own, you gain natural weapons (and reach with those weapons) as described below.  These natural weapons gain an enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls equal to 1/4 your druid level, and at 4rh level and higher they are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.  The damage dice given are for Medium druids; smaller or larger druids should adjust those values according to the table on page 28 of the DMG.

If knocked unconscious or slain in shapeshifted form, you revert to your original form.

______________________________________________

Predator Form – 1st level

You gain a primary bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage.  You have the reach of a long creature of your size (5 feet for Small or Medium).  You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, and your natural armor bonus improves by 4.  Your base land speed becomes 50 feet.

At 2nd level, you gain the trip ability when in predator form.  If you successfully hit with your bite attack, you may attempt to trip your opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity.

At 4th level, you gain Spring Attack as a bonus feat when in predator form, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.

At 6th level, you gain Improved Natural Attack (Bite) as a bonus feat when in predator form.

______________________________________________

Aquatic Form – 1st level

You gain a primary bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage.  You have the reach of a long creature of your size (5 feet for Small or Medium).  You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, and your natural armor bonus improves by 4.  You gain a swim speed of 60 feet but you lose your land speed.  You gain a +8 bonus on Swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks, and can charge while swimming in a straight line.  You can breath under water, but you cannot breath out of the water.

At 2nd level, you gain blindsense of 30 feet when in aquatic form.  This only works if you are underwater.

At 4th level, you gain Spring Attack as a bonus feat when in aquatic form, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.  You can use this feat while swimming.

At 6th level, you gain Improved Natural Attack (Bite) as a bonus feat when in aquatic form.

______________________________________________

Aerial Form – 5th level

While in aerial form, you gain a primary talon attack that deals 1d6 points of damage.  You have the reach of a long creature your size (5 feet for Small or Medium).  You gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +2 enhancement bonus to Reflex saves, and your natural armor improves by 2.  You gain a fly speed of 40 feet (good maneuverability).

At 7th level, you gain Flyby Attack as a bonus feat when in aerial form.

At 9th level, your fly speed increases to 60 feet.

At 11th level, you gain Wingover as a bonus feat when in aerial form.

______________________________________________

Ferocious Slayer Form – 8th level

You gain a primary bite attack that deals 1d8 points of damage and two secondary claw attacks that each deal 1d6 points of damage.  Your size increases by one category (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a long creature of your size (5 feet for Medium or Large).  You gain a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Fortitude saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 8.  Your base land speed changes to 40 feet.

At 10th level you gain Improved Critical (Bite) and Improved Critical (Claw) as bonus feats when in ferocious slayer form.

At 13th level you gain Improved Grab when in ferocious slayer form.  If you hit with a claw attack, you can start a grapple as a free action, provoking an attack of opportunity.

At 15th level you gain Improved Natural Attack (Bite) and Improved Natural Attack (Claw) as bonus feats when in ferocious slayer form.

______________________________________________

Aquatic Slayer Form – 8th level

You gain a primary bite attack that deals 1d8 points of damage and two secondary claw attacks that each deal 1d6 points of damage.  Your size increases by one category (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a long creature of your size (5 feet for Medium or Large).  You gain a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Fortitude saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 8.  You gain a swim speed of 50 feet but you lose your land speed.  You gain a +8 bonus on Swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks, and can charge while swimming in a straight line.  You can breath under water, but you cannot breath out of the water.

At 10th level you gain Improved Critical (Bite) and Improved Critical (Claw) as bonus feats when in aquatic slayer form.

At 13th level you gain Improved Grab when in aquatic slayer form.  If you hit with a claw attack, you can start a grapple as a free action, provoking an attack of opportunity.

At 15th level you gain Improved Natural Attack (Bite) and Improved Natural Attack (Claw) as bonus feats when in aquatic slayer form.

______________________________________________

Forest Avenger Form – 12th level

You gain a pair of primary slam attacks that deal 1d8 points of damage each.  Your size increases by one category (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (5 feet for Medium, 10 feet for Large).  You gain a +12 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus to Fortitude and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 12.  Your base land speed becomes 20 feet.

You gain damage reduction 5/slashing and electricity resistance of 10  while in forest avenger form.

At 14th level, you gain Improved Overrun as a bonus feat while in forest avenger form (even if you don’t meet the prerequisites).

At 17th level you gain fast healing 5 when in contact with soil.  You gain immunity to electricity.  Your damage reduction improves to 10/slashing.

At 19th level, your size increases by two categories (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (10 feet for Large, 15 feet for Huge).

______________________________________________

Aquatic Horror Form – 12th level

You gain a pair of primary tentacle attacks that deal 1d8 points of damage each.  Your size increases by one category (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (5 feet for Medium, 10 feet for Large).  You gain a +12 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus to Fortitude and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 12.  You gain a swim speed of 30 feet but you lose your land speed.  You gain a +8 bonus on Swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks, and can charge while swimming in a straight line.  You can breath under water, but you cannot breath out of the water.

You gain damage reduction 5/ bludgeoning and fire resistance of 10 while in aquatic horror form.

At 14th level, you gain Improved Grab when in aquatic horror form.  If you hit with a tentacle attack, you can start a grapple as a free action, provoking an attack of opportunity.

At 17th level you gain fast healing 5 when underwater.  You gain immunity to fire.  Your damage reduction improves to 10/bludgeoning.

At 19th level, your size increases by two categories (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (10 feet for Large, 15 feet for Huge).

______________________________________________

Elemental Fury Form – 16th level

You gain a pair of primary slam attacks that deal 2d6 points of damage each.  Your size increases by two categories (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (10 feet for Large, 15 feet for Huge). 

You gain immunity to critical hits in elemental fury form.  You don’t need to breathe while in elemental fury form.

You gain other abilities depending on the element you choose for your form:

 Air: You gain a +12 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Reflex and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 12.  You gain a fly speed of 60 feet (perfect maneuverability).  You are immune to electricity.

 Earth: You gain a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Fortitude and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 16.  You gain earth glide (as listed in the Monster Manual), which allows you to burrow at your land speed without leaving a hole.  You are immune to acid.

 Fire: Your slam attack deals 1d8 damage instead of 2d6.  Your slam attack also deals an extra 1d8 fire damage.  This fire damage scales with your size changes, just like your slam attack.  You gain a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Reflex and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 12.  You are immune to fire.

 Water: You gain a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Fortitude and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 12.  You gain a swim speed equal to your land speed.  You gain a +8 bonus on Swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks, and can charge while swimming in a straight line.  You are immune to cold.

At 18th level, you gain Great Cleave as a bonus feat while in elemental fury form (even if you don’t meet the prerequisites).  You gain an additional attack, depending on your element.  All DCs are 10 + 1/2 Druid level + Con modifier.

 Air: You gain the whirlwind ability of an air elemental.

 Earth: Your enhancement bonus to Strength and natural armor increase to +20.

 Fire: If you successfully deal damage with a slam attack, your opponent must succeed on a Reflex save or catch fire.  The fire burns 1d4 rounds (or until extinguished), taking fire damage each round equal to the fire damage you add to your slam attack.

 Water: You gain the vortex ability of a water elemental.

At 20th level, your size increases by three categories (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (15 feet for Huge, 20 feet for Gargantuan).  The enhancement bonus on your saving throws increases to +6 when in elemental fury form.

______________________________________________


Natural Spell [Metamagic]

You have learned the art of casting while shapeshifted.
Prerequisite: Shapeshift ability
Benefit: A spell prepared with this feat can be cast when shapeshifted, regardless of the components.  You do not need to provide any material components that cost less than one gp.  If your divine focus or focus is melded into your form, you may cast any spell requiring such a focus as normal.  A spell with a costly material component can be cast if you spend one XP per 5 gp of the cost of the component.

A natural spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

______________________________________________

[Midnight_v]

Aquatic Horror Form – 12th level
  FUCK YEAH LOL

Carol the deep ones. . . lol

carol of the old ones

Wait a minute ...    don't some of those form still own a fighter? Even our moded fighter?
Can this ability be foiled?

You can shapeshift as a swift action.  There is no limit to the number of times per day you can shapeshift, nor the amount of time you can spend in a shapeshifted form.

Hmm... guess not...

Natural spell should be +2 level not plus one most likely...
Hmm... uh oh...  :-[

[RobbyPants]

Oh, I'm sure they could be tweaked a bit.  Basically, all I did was copy the enhancement bonuses as-is, and slightly modify them for the elemental fury form.  The three aquaitic forms are suposed to directly match the other three forms granted at that level.  Also, I added two more abilities for each form, to make them a little more attractive at later levels.  Still, by level 16, you'll have little reason to take anything other than elemental fury form.

+2 for Natural Spell could probably work too. 

I haven't taken the time to do any match-ups for these PCs.  There's no playtesting at this stage.  Still, I wanted to get these out here since I've been blabbing about them so much.

[Midnight_v]

Oh, I'm sure they could be tweaked a bit.  Basically, all I did was copy the enhancement bonuses as-is, and slightly modify them for the elemental fury form.  The three aquaitic forms are suposed to directly match the other three forms granted at that level.  Also, I added two more abilities for each form, to make them a little more attractive at later levels.  Still, by level 16, you'll have little reason to take anything other than elemental fury form.

+2 for Natural Spell could probably work too. 

I haven't taken the time to do any match-ups for these PCs.  There's no playtesting at this stage.  Still, I wanted to get these out here since I've been blabbing about them so much.

Cool Cool... the reason I say level +2 for natural spell is its the same as having Silent and still spell...
you still save a feat though which is cool...

[RobbyPants]

So, what exactly concerns you with them compared to the fighter?  Is it the size of the enchancement bonuses to Str and AC?  Is it that I let them use melded gear?

You're right that a fighter cannot Foil shapeshift, but he can still Foil a druid's attacks and spells as normal.

[Midnight_v]

Yea... just the size of the bonuses... I guess...

You're right that a fighter cannot Foil shapeshift, but he can still Foil a druid's attacks and spells as normal.

That makes it a bit better actually. 
Though for a sec i was in awe of it and thinking of it compared to the old fighter so I'm guilty myself...

Lets just stop for a sec and run a quick test of some kind...

We have 4 classes now lets look at...
Rebalanced Fighter... druid... Sorceror...Monk.
as  team. Vs an encounter.
Vs each other ... I mean like what they're able to contribute.
Is that possible without a major divergence to the thread?
Should I start a testing thread?
I'm just trying to see what we've done. We dont' need max optimization either just  quick scan of life as these guys... might do wonders for out goal set.

[Elennsar]

Midnight: Or, you could actually be someone who isn't interested in being an insulting dick to everyone who disagrees with you and actually expresses that on a regular basis. Really. It would be extremely easy to have said "it's exactly like the PHB II AFC but we're thinking about allowing (possibly via metamagic) casting spells while shapeshifted.". Did anyone say anything of the sort? No. So don't blame me for your inability to communicate what you're doing, or suggest a duel of wits to compensate for the fact you're more interested in being insulting than helpful.

As for classes: Having a guy who does exactly the same thing as the Fighter is wasted ink. Having a guy who does "combat things like the fighter, but more the subtle and craft lightly armored warrior than the heavily armored 'tank' which is what the Fighter class does" justifies both classes.

If Coke/Pepsi/Dr. Pepper are exactly the same, there is no reason to have all three as options just because they have different names. If they are different, it is worth having all three. Having an "inferior form and a stronger form" of the same idea is also a terrible idea. The inferior form should not exist if the goal is balanced classes.

As for testing: What, for a given level, is a fighter supposed to be able to beat/lose against/have a 50-50 chance either way against?

Same with a monk. Same with a druid. Same with a sorcerer. We need to make the classes match those benchmarks...if, for instance, a fighter is supposed to be the guy you rely on versus a golem, the fighter needs to be able to do very well versus a golem the majority of the time.

As for shapeshift: I presume (by the absence of any mention that it changes) that you are still a human (or elf, or warthog, or whatever)? So no casting Awaken on yourself or that sort of broken crap.

[veekie]

The ability looks awesome, though I think the stat bonuses might need a bit of tweaking, keeping in mind that the various forms only allow 2-3 attacks compared to a fighter or other martial character's iteratives.

I'd say replace the Improved Critical and Improved Natural Attack mentions with, "Your bite attack's threat range improves to 19-20" and "Your bite attack's damage increases by one size category" respectively though.

As for natural spell, I'd say a +1 spell level is enough, if it serves as Still/Silent/Eschew only for the purpose of casting while shapeshifted. That is to say no casting in a Silence or while grappled. Something like this(though my phrasing is ass):

Natural Spell [Metamagic]

You have learned the art of casting while shapeshifted.
Prerequisite: Shapeshifting ability
Benefit: A spell prepared with this feat can be cast when shapeshifted, regardless of the components. You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in another form. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.  You do not need to provide any material components that cost less than one gp.  If your divine focus or focus is melded into your form, you may cast any spell requiring such a focus as normal.  A spell with a costly material component can be cast if you spend one XP per 5 gp of the cost of the component.

You must still be able to make sounds for verbal components and move freely for somatic components.

A natural spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

[SiggyDevil]

Shapeshifts looking good, Rob.

[RobbyPants]

Lets just stop for a sec and run a quick test of some kind...

We have 4 classes now lets look at...
Rebalanced Fighter... druid... Sorceror...Monk.
as  team. Vs an encounter.
Vs each other ... I mean like what they're able to contribute.
Is that possible without a major divergence to the thread?
Should I start a testing thread?
I'm just trying to see what we've done. We dont' need max optimization either just  quick scan of life as these guys... might do wonders for out goal set.

I think a test could be a good idea.  We might want to make sure we're all on the same page for the sorcerer.  I haven't posted anything about that class in a little over a week.  My last impression was that we didn't want to give out too many abilities, so I was going to scale back the version I posted a bit.  I'm keeping the bonus feats for sure.  It's the surging magic ability I'll probably outright scrap.  I'm still toying with the extra spell ability.

Anyway, other than hammering out the sorcerer, I think you're right that we should test some of this stuff.  I'd say it'd be better if you start another thread for it.  This one's gotten large to the point where it's only a matter of time before Meg will lock it and ask me to make another.

The ability looks awesome, though I think the stat bonuses might need a bit of tweaking, keeping in mind that the various forms only allow 2-3 attacks compared to a fighter or other martial character's iteratives.

Well, I'm certainly willing to evaluate the bonuses.  Keep one thing in mind: other than the individual forms of the elemental fury form, I just used the values straight from the PHB2.  Those values were calcuated assuming that the druid's magical gear stopped functioning when shapeshifted, but my variation allows them to work.

That being said, I might be able to scrap the saving throw bonuses entirely.  I'm sure the Str and NA bonuses could scale back a bit too.

I'd say replace the Improved Critical and Improved Natural Attack mentions with, "Your bite attack's threat range improves to 19-20" and "Your bite attack's damage increases by one size category" respectively though.

Well, I used that wording partially because that's how it was in the PHB2.  The other reason is I want it to be quite clear that it doesn't stack if the druid were to take those feats later.

[Kuroimaken]

Note to self: get back to this when my brain doesn't ache.

[veekie]

Magical gear for stat boosts on Shapeshift is harmless though, since Enhancement bonus overlaps, though the saves would not overlap with Resistance bonus.

I figured though, mainly for Improved Natural Attack, that the player shouldn't have to go looking in the Monster Manual for a feat reference.

That and I didn't really mind if a druid bummed one of his feats on those, since even with the feats, they're likely better off investing in metamagic anyway, and the shapeshift wouldn't bring them to Primary Melee even with the feats.

As for the testing, I suggest instead of fielding an entire rebalanced team, pick up 3 of the inherently Tier 3s(warblade in place of fighter, etc) + 1 of the class we are testing and pit them against a set of encounters to compare their relative contributions. Easier to work out how close they are to the desired outcome that way.