D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[AndyJames]

Yeah. Undead with d4 HD (like all liches) and the lack of a Con bonus is called "kitty fodder".

[SiggyDevil]

Remember that debate we had about Undead and CON scores?
Yeah.
I'm still in favor of that, especially when Jaron mentions:

Undead with classes always use D12s.

Like, what the hell?
Talk about special exceptions.
Undead are HPtarded.

[veekie]

Well, I've also advocated Con scored undead(heck, if an undead template gave a bonus to con instead of d12ing, it'd make the undead templates much more equal). Never got a consensus on that though.

[AndyJames]

Let Undead templates give Unholy Toughness (instead of a straight bonus to Con) that adds to the Con bonus to hp? It awards at least some people for not dumping Cha

[JaronK]

Once again, as I brought up last time:

Undead have enough HP anyway.  They really do.  Giving undead con scores throws a whole lot of stuff out of wack (notably the CR of all existing undead, and the power of any Necromancer).  There is no need to give them free Charisma to AC.  Note that when I turned my party Necropolitan as a Dread Necromancer they got D12+6 HP/HD... do you really think our Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade needed more than that, and should have gotten Charisma to hp HD times in addition to his charisma twice to saves?  I really don't think so.   Nor do I think a Dread Necromancer (a Charisma caster) should get such a huge bonus for turning himself undead.

This is someone who likes playing Necromancers saying that giving undead con scores or charisma to hitpoints would overpower them.  Just saying.

JaronK

[SiggyDevil]

Well, I've also advocated Con scored undead(heck, if an undead template gave a bonus to con instead of d12ing, it'd make the undead templates much more equal). Never got a consensus on that though.

You got your consensus then and you're getting it again now. 

Remember though that mathematically they don't need Unholy Toughness, just a CON score of 14 (assuming the Undead HD would be replaced with a bland NPC class such as, say, Warrior) for +2 HP per level on an average of d8.

• d12 average 6.5 + 0 = 6.5
Compare to:
• d8 average 4.5 + 2 (from 14 CON) = 6.5

SAME DAMN THING

With Rob's Turn Undead change, they don't even need high Will sale; Turn damage is exactly that... damage.

[Elennsar]

And if they have a Constitution score, the ones with class levels don't need a d12 for hp, which gives a HUGE advantage to wizard or sorcerer liches for no good reason.

[JaronK]

Except that a Wizard Lich looses 4 casting levels to LA, so it's still a horrid idea for them.  The classes that benefit the most from becoming undead (casters) lose the most as well (caster levels) so it balances out.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

That has more to do with LA being horrible than the specific overpowered benefit of getting a free 18 Constitution.

And why are we discussing undead and their HD/lack of Con in a thread on classes?

In the words of various people: Off topic, off topic!

Robby, if turning does damage, what does rebuking do?

[AndyJames]

Once again, as I brought up last time:

Undead have enough HP anyway.  They really do.  Giving undead con scores throws a whole lot of stuff out of wack (notably the CR of all existing undead, and the power of any Necromancer).  There is no need to give them free Charisma to AC.  Note that when I turned my party Necropolitan as a Dread Necromancer they got D12+6 HP/HD... do you really think our Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade needed more than that, and should have gotten Charisma to hp HD times in addition to his charisma twice to saves?  I really don't think so.   Nor do I think a Dread Necromancer (a Charisma caster) should get such a huge bonus for turning himself undead.

This is someone who likes playing Necromancers saying that giving undead con scores or charisma to hitpoints would overpower them.  Just saying.

JaronK

I think the suggestion is that they keep their class HD, not get the d12 as well.

[JaronK]

Yes, but what about Desecrate, Corpse Crafter, and such? 

JaronK

[AndyJames]

Corpsecrafter doesn't work on most PC-style Undead templates. For example, it doesn't work on Necropolitan (or Lich or Vampire, IIRC). Something in the wording. I don't have it on me at the moment. Sorry I can't be more specific than that.

Desecrate would definitely work, though.

[JaronK]

Corpsecrafter doesn't work on most PC-style Undead templates. For example, it doesn't work on Necropolitan (or Lich or Vampire, IIRC). Something in the wording. I don't have it on me at the moment. Sorry I can't be more specific than that.

Because you don't necessarily use a Necromancy spell to do it, is the arguement, and it's debateable (only casters can turn you into one, so in theory you do use such a spell, but what spell is never specified, so it could go both ways).  I'm familiar with the arguement.

Desecrate would definitely work, though.

So does a Dread Necromancer doing the creation process.  Also, Corpse Crafter definitely works when you turn the player into a Bone Creature, so if a DM won't let you get away with it for Necropolitans, just go with Bone Creature instead.  A hat of disguise should solve the appearance issue.

JaronK

[SiggyDevil]

And why are we discussing undead and their HD/lack of Con in a thread on classes?

... because being Undead messes with how HD and HP are meant to work?

[RobbyPants]

Over at gleemax, I made an undead subtype that used d8 HD and they had a Con score.  This was reserved for undead creatures with a metabolism.  Still, I see that as more of a house-rule at this point than something I want to hash out in a balancing project.  Personally I don't see much issue with the d12 undead HD.

The only problem I've seen with the undead HD (including its 1/2 BAB advancement) is that melee undead creatures need a rediculous number of HD to be effective, rendering level-appropriate turning moot.  Part of the revised turning rules I created in the Combat & Rules thread help to deal with this.  So, even if you can't turn them with the PHB mechanic, you can still damage them.

Robby, if turning does damage, what does rebuking do?

In short, rebuking heals undead and hurts living creatures.  Note that I renamed it to Bolster (as that's really what you're doing at that point).  There is an improved version of turn and bolster available as a feat.  The improved turning is what dazes undead creatures on a failed Will save.  The improved bolster (called rebuke) controls undead on a failed Will save (with certain limitations).  The full version of the mechanics are in the spoiler below:

Turn Undead
I wanted to make a slightly less clunky mechanic.  This is a slightly modified version Bier posted (possibly from Piazo?)


Turn Undead
You create a burst of positive energy centered on yourself with a thirty foot radius.  All undead creatures in the area take 1d6 points of damage per Cleric level.  All living creatures in the area are healed for half that amount.  You are not affected by your own turn attempts.

Undead creatures with Turn Resistance take less damage.  For each point of turn resistance, reduce the number of damage dice by one.  So if a ninth level Cleric (9d6 turn damage normally) would turn a vampire (turn resistance 4), he would roll 4d6 damage less, so he would only deal 5d6 damage to the vampire.


Bolster Undead (replace rebuke undead)
You create a burst of negative energy centered on yourself with a thirty foot radius.  All undead creatures in the area are healed 1d6 points of damage per Cleric level.  All living creatures in the area take damage equal to half that amount.  Living creatures may make a Will save for half damage (DC 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Cha mod).  You are not affected by your own bolster attempts.


Improved Turn Undead
Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead
Benifit: When you turn undead, all undead creatures in the area must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Cha mod) or be dazed for a number of rounds equal to half your Cleric level plus your Cha mod.


Rebuke Undead
Prerequisite: Ability to bolster undead
Benifit: When you bolster undead, all undead creatures in the area must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Cha mod) or risk falling under your control.  If your Cleric level is at least double the undead creature's hit dice and it fails its Will save, it is under your mental control.  You may control any number of undead creature's whose total hit dice does not exceed your Cleric level.

[Kuroimaken]

You know, one thing about Wizards that I feel is horribly, horribly wrong: apart from a slightly different casting system than sorcerers, Wizards have nothing to show for their bookworminess. How does anyone feel about giving them something similar to Bardic Lore?

[Midnight_v]

They already have all knowledges as class skills and intelligence as a main stat. ... and spells to fill everything else... there's no need for it really.
It already there.  .  . plus giving them that power even if though they don't need it, slips just that much more Cock into the bard prison sex style.
I vote no.

[Elennsar]

I vote yes. Bards know things from legend and myth and gossip. Wizards know things Man Has Long Since Forgotten.

And I'm not sure the Bard should have it even without seperating that, though you'd want to make sure they had something to replace it.

[RobbyPants]

I agree with Midnight_V.  The Knowledge skills represent this.  Something they didn't start with the initial MM was the Lore for each monster.  Now, a Knowledge check of the appropriate type will tell you varying degrees of information on the monster.

You can use Knowledge (History), (Local), and to a lesser extent, (Nobility) to glean most anything bardic lore could anyway.

So I also vote no.

[Kuroimaken]

Guys, I said similar, not identical. It doesn't have to work the very same way. I just feel they should have something to show for all the time they spend studying.