D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Kuroimaken]

I guess I can see the reasoning of capping it if you get the ability with light armor, but not capping it if you don't (i.e. capping it for the swordsage and oracle, but not for the monk or unarmed swordsage*).

While I can see the reasoning in that, I find it slightly... flawed.

First of all, light armor loses out plenty in comparison to heavy armor, gaining only in the mobility department (as well as being the only kind of armor many classes can equip). Second of all, the Swordsage's bonus is a bigger low-level buff than it is high-level (your AC is considerably high at low levels in exchange for a little MAD, but at higher levels things start to even out a little more, specially because increasing attributes is a lot harder than pimping out your armor).

I say let the Swordsage and the Monk go uncapped. Not only would it suck at low levels, when compared to saves, AC isn't that big a defense anyway.

[veekie]

Considering that combat healing is considered a subpar action expenditure anyway, I don't really have an issue with the Healing cleric's Mass CLW being a lifenuke better than his own Cure Critical. Well, he'd decimate undead, but no more than he should anyway.

[RobbyPants]

I say let the Swordsage and the Monk go uncapped. Not only would it suck at low levels, when compared to saves, AC isn't that big a defense anyway.

I do have to agree.  As I mentioned earlier, if the bonuses only apply when in light or no armor, this doesn't give a huge benifit to the cleric, who can wear fullplate.

I suppose a druid could get a more noticable benifit when shape shifting, but then he's dippling a level and losing a caster level as well as slowing his shape shift progression in the first place.

Considering that combat healing is considered a subpar action expenditure anyway, I don't really have an issue with the Healing cleric's Mass CLW being a lifenuke better than his own Cure Critical. Well, he'd decimate undead, but no more than he should anyway.

I don't know.  I'm still a little iffy about that.

Lets see, at 9th level, what would be a reasonable Wis for a cleric? 22ish?  That would be +6 HP per target if we treated Mass CLW as 1st level and +30 if we treated it as 5th.  I mean, I guess it doesn't break the game per se, but that would be 1d8+35 (39.5 on average) compared to 4d8+33 (51 on average) for a CCW.  I suppose we are comparing a 5th level slot to a 4th level slot, but it seems like you'd have so little reason to use these single-target spells.

Well, at 15th level, you could Heal for 150 HP, or cast Mass CCW.  What might the cleric's Wis be at this point? 26? 28?  That would be either 4d8+79 or 4d8+87 at that point (97 or 105 on average respectively) per target.  I guess maybe it isn't that bad.  It is an 8th level spell.

Okay.  You talked me into it (or I talked myself into it).

Edit:
Of course, if we give this out for the Healing Domain, I suppose I need to think up some similar things for other domains.

[veekie]

Figured every domain should do something interesting, rather than a one off power that _usually swiftly becomes obsolete. For example, at later levels, Healing could remove some status effects/ability damage with Cure spells, like Healing Lorecall does.

I see your point about the whole negligible Wis to AC thing(with casters at least), but any light armored(whether it's a fighter who doesn't want the mobility dent) non caster with a high wis(rolled stats for example), would be far more than willing to dip a level in swordsage(though probably not a monk) for wis to light armor AC.

[RobbyPants]

Well, a fighter that favors mobility will need a high Dex in addition to Str and Con.  Add a high Wis requirement to that you have a fairly MAD character.  Plus, as the character levels, he can't really afford to split all his enhancement, inherent, and level bonuses among several scores.  That high Wis will probably advance very slowly.

I suppose there could be exceptions (and as classes and spells change, this might change too), but I don't think it should be a huge issue.

[veekie]

Agreed, no biggie, just thought it could be a _minor issue and brought it up.

[RobbyPants]

A while back, we started working on the barbarian, and I feel it was most of the way finished, but not quite.  Here's the fix I'd proposed (changes from PHB in bold):

[spoiler=Barbarian]

1   Fast movement, illiteracy, rage 1/encounter
2   Uncanny dodge
3   Trap sense +1, Rage (Mettle)
4   Rage +2 rounds
5   Improved uncanny dodge
6   Trap sense +2, Pounce
7   Damage reduction 1/—, Rage (Damage Reduction)
8   Rage +4 rounds
9   Trap sense +3
10  Damage reduction 2/—
11  Greater rage
12  Rage +6 rounds, trap sense +4
13  Damage reduction 3/—
14  Indomitable will
15  Trap sense +5, Rage (Improved Mettle)
16  Damage reduction 4/—, Rage +8 rounds
17  Tireless rage
18  Trap sense +6
19  Damage reduction 5/—
20  Mighty rage, Rage +10 rounds

Rage: Per the PHB with the following exceptions: the barbarian can use rage once per encounter instead of per day.  Instead of gaining a +4 bonus on Constitution, the barbarian instead gainst a +2 morale bonus on Fortitude saves and a number of temporary hit points equal to double his hit dice.

The moral bonus to fortitude saves increases to +3 at 11th level when the barbarian gains Greater Rage and to +4 at 20th level when he gains Mighty Rage.  His temporary hit points increase to triple his hit dice at 11th level and four times his hit dice at 20th level.

As the barbarian gains levels, the duration of his rage increases.  Every four levels, his rage lasts two rounds longer.

Rage (Mettle): At 3rd level, the barbarian gains Mettle when he is raging.

Pounce: At 6th level, the barbarian gains Pounce.

Rage (Damage Reduction): At 7th level, the damage reduction gained from barabrian class levels is doubled while raging.

Rage (Improved Mettle): At 15th level, when the barbarian is raging, he gains Improved Mettle.  This works exactly like Mettle, except on a failed save, he only takes the partial effects instead of the full effects of the spell or ability.[/spoiler]

Now, given that, there were a few issues and concerns:

• Trap Sense: Does the barbarian need it?  I can see dropping it, although every class with Uncanny Dodge has it.  Should it be dropped in favor of something more flavorful/useful?
  
• Capstone: Should we get a better capstone?
  
• Front-Loaded: Due to the nature of changing rage to per-encounter, is seems like the barbarian becomes a more attractive dip.  Now, a single level will let you rage each encounter if you choose, instead of once per day.  Now, I wouldn't call this a "dip", but it seems like once you hit 6th level, you might be better off jumping onto fighter and/or some other PrC.  It looks like Barbarian 6/Fighter 14 is stronger than Barbarian 20 or Fighter 20.
  
  Edit:
  I just thought of a potential replacement for Trap Sense.  How about granting the barbarian Fast Healing of an amount equal to the Trap Sense bonus while raging?  Basically, the bonus is 1/3 your barbarian level (+1 at 3rd level, +6 at 18th).  I guess Fast Healing 6 at 18th level isn't all that great, but it seems like FH 1 at level 3 and FH 2 at  level 6 could be pretty handy.  Thoughts?
  

[Kuroimaken]

I just thought of a potential replacement for Trap Sense.  How about granting the barbarian Fast Healing of an amount equal to the Trap Sense bonus while raging?  Basically, the bonus is 1/3 your barbarian level (+1 at 3rd level, +6 at 18th).  I guess Fast Healing 6 at 18th level isn't all that great, but it seems like FH 1 at level 3 and FH 2 at  level 6 could be pretty handy.  Thoughts?

You shouldn't forget that FH gets more use out of combat than in-combat, as it effectively refills your HP between encounters.

[RobbyPants]

Below is a copy-paste of a post I made a while back for modifying the PHB2 Shapeshift rules.  I feel it's still a semi-open issue.  Basically, I took the existing forms (which usually had one scaling ability two or three levels after the form was granted), added two more scaling abilities, and added in two aquatic forms (which were missing entirely).  I left the Enhancement bonuses to Str as-is from the PHB 2.  Still, for a full caster, are some of these too much?  I also allowed some magical items to still function when shapeshifted, which does alter the power level of this a bit.  Should that be removed?  Should these be toned down a bit?

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Okay!  At long last, here are my new shapeshift rules!  For the most part, they're the same as the PHB 2, but I've added a few abilities to each form as they gain levels.  Also, I modified the four elemental forms quite a bit.  I included a new version of Natural Spell at the end.  One last thing of note is that your magical gear is still functional when melded into your form.  You cannot use items the require manipulation (like potions, wands, scrolls, etc), but other "passive" items still function.

So, long post is loooong!


Shapeshift                           

You can shapeshift into an animal or other aspect of nature determined by the forms available to you.  Each form grants you special abilities.  You may choose the specific appearance of your form, but the granted abilities are always the same for each specific form.  You can shapeshift as a swift action.  There is no limit to the number of times per day you can shapeshift, nor the amount of time you can spend in a shapeshifted form.

You retain your normal Hit Dice, hit points, base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks regardless of your form.  You also retain your normal ability scores, though each form grants a bonus to your Strength score.

You keep all extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part your new form does not have.

All of your held and worn gear melds into your new form.  Any armor or shield bonus granted by your armor is lost.  All of your magical gear remains fully functional, although items requiring manipulation, such as scrolls, potions, wands, and staves cannot be used in your new form.  You still gain the enhancement bonus granted by any magical armor or shields you were wearing before shapeshifting.

You cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components when shapeshifted.  You can use the Natural Spell feat (see below) to help overcome this obstacle.

When you shapeshift into a form other than your own, you gain natural weapons (and reach with those weapons) as described below.  These natural weapons gain an enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls equal to 1/4 your druid level, and at 4rh level and higher they are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.  The damage dice given are for Medium druids; smaller or larger druids should adjust those values according to the table on page 28 of the DMG.

If knocked unconscious or slain in shapeshifted form, you revert to your original form.

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Predator Form – 1st level

You gain a primary bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage.  You have the reach of a long creature of your size (5 feet for Small or Medium).  You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, and your natural armor bonus improves by 4.  Your base land speed becomes 50 feet.

At 2nd level, you gain the trip ability when in predator form.  If you successfully hit with your bite attack, you may attempt to trip your opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity.

At 4th level, you gain Spring Attack as a bonus feat when in predator form, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.

At 6th level, you gain Improved Natural Attack (Bite) as a bonus feat when in predator form.

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Aquatic Form – 1st level

You gain a primary bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage.  You have the reach of a long creature of your size (5 feet for Small or Medium).  You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, and your natural armor bonus improves by 4.  You gain a swim speed of 60 feet but you lose your land speed.  You gain a +8 bonus on Swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks, and can charge while swimming in a straight line.  You can breath under water, but you cannot breath out of the water.

At 2nd level, you gain blindsense of 30 feet when in aquatic form.  This only works if you are underwater.

At 4th level, you gain Spring Attack as a bonus feat when in aquatic form, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.  You can use this feat while swimming.

At 6th level, you gain Improved Natural Attack (Bite) as a bonus feat when in aquatic form.

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Aerial Form – 5th level

While in aerial form, you gain a primary talon attack that deals 1d6 points of damage.  You have the reach of a long creature your size (5 feet for Small or Medium).  You gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +2 enhancement bonus to Reflex saves, and your natural armor improves by 2.  You gain a fly speed of 40 feet (good maneuverability).

At 7th level, you gain Flyby Attack as a bonus feat when in aerial form.

At 9th level, your fly speed increases to 60 feet.

At 11th level, you gain Wingover as a bonus feat when in aerial form.

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Ferocious Slayer Form – 8th level

You gain a primary bite attack that deals 1d8 points of damage and two secondary claw attacks that each deal 1d6 points of damage.  Your size increases by one category (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a long creature of your size (5 feet for Medium or Large).  You gain a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Fortitude saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 8.  Your base land speed changes to 40 feet.

At 10th level you gain Improved Critical (Bite) and Improved Critical (Claw) as bonus feats when in ferocious slayer form.

At 13th level you gain Improved Grab when in ferocious slayer form.  If you hit with a claw attack, you can start a grapple as a free action, provoking an attack of opportunity.

At 15th level you gain Improved Natural Attack (Bite) and Improved Natural Attack (Claw) as bonus feats when in ferocious slayer form.

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Aquatic Slayer Form – 8th level

You gain a primary bite attack that deals 1d8 points of damage and two secondary claw attacks that each deal 1d6 points of damage.  Your size increases by one category (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a long creature of your size (5 feet for Medium or Large).  You gain a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Fortitude saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 8.  You gain a swim speed of 50 feet but you lose your land speed.  You gain a +8 bonus on Swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks, and can charge while swimming in a straight line.  You can breath under water, but you cannot breath out of the water.

At 10th level you gain Improved Critical (Bite) and Improved Critical (Claw) as bonus feats when in aquatic slayer form.

At 13th level you gain Improved Grab when in aquatic slayer form.  If you hit with a claw attack, you can start a grapple as a free action, provoking an attack of opportunity.

At 15th level you gain Improved Natural Attack (Bite) and Improved Natural Attack (Claw) as bonus feats when in aquatic slayer form.

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Forest Avenger Form – 12th level

You gain a pair of primary slam attacks that deal 1d8 points of damage each.  Your size increases by one category (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (5 feet for Medium, 10 feet for Large).  You gain a +12 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus to Fortitude and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 12.  Your base land speed becomes 20 feet.

You gain damage reduction 5/slashing and electricity resistance of 10  while in forest avenger form.

At 14th level, you gain Improved Overrun as a bonus feat while in forest avenger form (even if you don’t meet the prerequisites).

At 17th level you gain fast healing 5 when in contact with soil.  You gain immunity to electricity.  Your damage reduction improves to 10/slashing.

At 19th level, your size increases by two categories (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (10 feet for Large, 15 feet for Huge).

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Aquatic Horror Form – 12th level

You gain a pair of primary tentacle attacks that deal 1d8 points of damage each.  Your size increases by one category (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (5 feet for Medium, 10 feet for Large).  You gain a +12 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus to Fortitude and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 12.  You gain a swim speed of 30 feet but you lose your land speed.  You gain a +8 bonus on Swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks, and can charge while swimming in a straight line.  You can breath under water, but you cannot breath out of the water.

You gain damage reduction 5/ bludgeoning and fire resistance of 10 while in aquatic horror form.

At 14th level, you gain Improved Grab when in aquatic horror form.  If you hit with a tentacle attack, you can start a grapple as a free action, provoking an attack of opportunity.

At 17th level you gain fast healing 5 when underwater.  You gain immunity to fire.  Your damage reduction improves to 10/bludgeoning.

At 19th level, your size increases by two categories (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (10 feet for Large, 15 feet for Huge).

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Elemental Fury Form – 16th level

You gain a pair of primary slam attacks that deal 2d6 points of damage each.  Your size increases by two categories (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (10 feet for Large, 15 feet for Huge). 

You gain immunity to critical hits in elemental fury form.  You don’t need to breathe while in elemental fury form.

You gain other abilities depending on the element you choose for your form:

 Air: You gain a +12 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Reflex and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 12.  You gain a fly speed of 60 feet (perfect maneuverability).  You are immune to electricity.

 Earth: You gain a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Fortitude and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 16.  You gain earth glide (as listed in the Monster Manual), which allows you to burrow at your land speed without leaving a hole.  You are immune to acid.

 Fire: Your slam attack deals 1d8 damage instead of 2d6.  Your slam attack also deals an extra 1d8 fire damage.  This fire damage scales with your size changes, just like your slam attack.  You gain a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Reflex and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 12.  You are immune to fire.

 Water: You gain a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Fortitude and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 12.  You gain a swim speed equal to your land speed.  You gain a +8 bonus on Swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks, and can charge while swimming in a straight line.  You are immune to cold.

At 18th level, you gain Great Cleave as a bonus feat while in elemental fury form (even if you don’t meet the prerequisites).  You gain an additional attack, depending on your element.  All DCs are 10 + 1/2 Druid level + Con modifier.

 Air: You gain the whirlwind ability of an air elemental.

 Earth: Your enhancement bonus to Strength and natural armor increase to +20.

 Fire: If you successfully deal damage with a slam attack, your opponent must succeed on a Reflex save or catch fire.  The fire burns 1d4 rounds (or until extinguished), taking fire damage each round equal to the fire damage you add to your slam attack.

 Water: You gain the vortex ability of a water elemental.

At 20th level, your size increases by three categories (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a tall  creature of your size (15 feet for Huge, 20 feet for Gargantuan).  The enhancement bonus on your saving throws increases to +6 when in elemental fury form.

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Natural Spell [Metamagic]

You have learned the art of casting while shapeshifted.
Prerequisite: Shapeshift ability
Benefit: A spell prepared with this feat can be cast when shapeshifted, regardless of the components.  You do not need to provide any material components that cost less than one gp.  If your divine focus or focus is melded into your form, you may cast any spell requiring such a focus as normal.  A spell with a costly material component can be cast if you spend one XP per 5 gp of the cost of the component.

A natural spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

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[RobbyPants]

I just thought of a potential replacement for Trap Sense.  How about granting the barbarian Fast Healing of an amount equal to the Trap Sense bonus while raging?  Basically, the bonus is 1/3 your barbarian level (+1 at 3rd level, +6 at 18th).  I guess Fast Healing 6 at 18th level isn't all that great, but it seems like FH 1 at level 3 and FH 2 at  level 6 could be pretty handy.  Thoughts?

You shouldn't forget that FH gets more use out of combat than in-combat, as it effectively refills your HP between encounters.

True.  I suppose a per-encounter Rage could be used out of combat every couple minutes to take care of this.  It makes the only-when-raging restriction seem kind of pointeless.  Should it simply be all the time, or should we scrap the idea? 

Another option would be to apply that fast healing to the temporary HP granted by rage, raising them up to a maximum of the amount initially granted.  For example, a 3rd level barbarian would get 6 temp HP when raging, and would heal one of these (to a max of 6) per round.  That could be handy, don't you think?

[veekie]

Barbarian, dropping Trap Sense for a temporary hit point pool that replenishes itself seems to be nicely thematic. I'd say to save on headaches, it grants the barbarian X temporary hit points every round. And since same source overlaps, thats effectively fast healing temp hp. Question is how much? I'd personally like them to have at least class level temp hp every round from this, on top of the Con boost.

The new Shapeshifts, looks good at a glance.

[Kuroimaken]

Barbarian, dropping Trap Sense for a temporary hit point pool that replenishes itself seems to be nicely thematic. I'd say to save on headaches, it grants the barbarian X temporary hit points every round. And since same source overlaps, thats effectively fast healing temp hp. Question is how much? I'd personally like them to have at least class level temp hp every round from this, on top of the Con boost.

The new Shapeshifts, looks good at a glance.

Temporary HP becomes slightly less valuable as levels rise, specially when it's based off something like class level. But the idea is still pretty solid.

How about Class Level times Constitution bonus, but every minute rather than round? Assuming 22 Con at level 20, our Barbarian friend would have 120 temp HP, but making it per minute means he benefits more at the beginning of the encounter rather than throughout the whole thing, unless it gets inexplicably long.

[Risada]

How about Class Level times Constitution bonus, but every minute rather than round? Assuming 22 Con at level 20, our Barbarian friend would have 120 temp HP, but making it per minute means he benefits more at the beginning of the encounter rather than throughout the whole thing, unless it gets inexplicably long.

That is quite a lot (even though an opponent's full attack can deplete it easily)....

Maybe class level + 2x Con mod per round?

[RobbyPants]

Well, if we were to simply use the amount granted by rage, then it would be like this:

Rage = HD x 2
Greater Rage = HD x 3 (at level 11+)
Mighty Rage = HD x 4 (at level 20)

So, to look at it level by level, the amount you'd gain per round would be:

level  Temp HP/round
______________________
1      2
2      4
3      6
4      8
5      10
6      12
7      14
8      16
9      18
10     20
11     33
12     36
13     39
14     42
15     45
16     48
17     51
18     54
19     57
20     80

Obviously, you get some pretty big jumps right at levels 11 and 20.  I'm not sure if at low levels, this is too strong.  Is it too much for a 3rd level raging barbarian to be gaining 6 temp HP per round?  I guess that's not too bad.  This would certainly help with survivability.  It's also a lot at higher levels.  I guess it might only negate a single attack at that point.

[Kuroimaken]

Well, if we were to simply use the amount granted by rage, then it would be like this:

Rage = HD x 2
Greater Rage = HD x 3 (at level 11+)
Mighty Rage = HD x 4 (at level 20)

So, to look at it level by level, the amount you'd gain per round would be:

level  Temp HP/round
______________________
1      2
2      4
3      6
4      8
5      10
6      12
7      14
8      16
9      18
10     20
11     33
12     36
13     39
14     42
15     45
16     48
17     51
18     54
19     57
20     80

Obviously, you get some pretty big jumps right at levels 11 and 20.  I'm not sure if at low levels, this is too strong.  Is it too much for a 3rd level raging barbarian to be gaining 6 temp HP per round?  I guess that's not too bad.  This would certainly help with survivability.  It's also a lot at higher levels.  I guess it might only negate a single attack at that point.

Maybe we ought to compare this to the sources of temporary HP casters get in comparison? That just doesn't feel too good.

[RobbyPants]

What sources are there?  The only Core ones I can think of off the top of my head are False Life and Vampiric Touch.

Thinking of psionics, Vigor grants you upward to 5 temp HP per level.  This could be as high as 100 at 20th level, not counting any overchanneling or wild surges.

Of course, they're all one-time uses.  They don't replenish every round or every minute.

[veekie]

In that case, I think that formula works well enough. Shrugging off a hit's worth of damage helps the barbarian actually succeed in soaking hits. Of course, it'd also mean dealing less damage than that in a round won't do anything but Make Hulk Angrier. Probably not a concern with anything thats a melee threat at that level.

[RobbyPants]

And it doesn't have to be that specific formula.  I only posted those numbers because that's how many temp HP rage currently grants with this version of the barbarian.  If temp HP were replenished per round, they could be set to a more linear progression if we wanted.

[Kuroimaken]

And it doesn't have to be that specific formula.  I only posted those numbers because that's how many temp HP rage currently grants with this version of the barbarian.  If temp HP were replenished per round, they could be set to a more linear progression if we wanted.

Do we want it to be an easy to understand progression or not?

Just wondering, because at some points, the scale of damage changes dramatically. 1 point of damage definitely isn't the same thing at 1st level as it is at, say, 5th.

[RobbyPants]

I'd say it should be either easy to understand, or at least have the value listed as a column in the table.  Even still, almost anything I've seen in existing classes has some easy to derive formula.

What I posted earlier was just a list of temp HP granted from rage in the first place.  Those values came from the HP you'd get from the Con increase in the PHB verion of rage.  With a +4 boost to Con, you get 2 x HD HP.  At level 11, you get Greater Rage, which gives you a +6 boost to Con (x3 HD HP).  At 20th level, the boost increases to +8 Con (x4 HD HP).

Of course, that progression has two very solid jumps (levels 11 and 20).  It could be a more linear scale, and I'd probaby be fine with it.  Even something as simple as 2 x HD the whole way isn't too bad.  It's 40 HP at level 20.  Nothing awesome, but it's just a progression of a lower level ability.