Help Please!!! Paladin optimization.

[bigdaddy843]

Hi. Once again, i require the power most greatest optimization-fu.

Well, i wanted to play a paladin, as i've never played one before and found them interesting. Going through the archived threads and handbook, i found some useful tidbits. But i lack a more complete picture suiting my needs.

The books open to me are: Core books, Complete collection (as in the complete divine, complete champions, etc.), and the races of ~ (races of stone, races of etc.) collection.

It seems dipping into cleric is an interesting option. Also, i opted to play a paladin of freedom as it seemed more interesting. Hence, i ask for all your aid. Please ask if you think more details are due. Thank's a lot.

Note: stuff from other sourcebooks might be allowable, DM dependant

[Negative Zero]

Just some things I noticed on the Lists of Stuff:

stacks for paladin special mount
Halfling Outrider, ecl 6, Complete Warrior
Wild Plains Outrider, ecl 7, Complete Adventurer
Cavalier, ecl 9, Complete Warrior
Knight of the Iron Glacier, ecl 7, Frostburn - War Megalocerous only
Ashworm Dragoon, ecl 6, Sandstorm - Ashworm only, see sidebar on p.67, unclear wording on how levels stack/overlap with Paladin
Aglarondan Griffonrider, ecl 8, Forgotten Realms: Unapproachable East
Triadic Knight, ecl 6, Champions of Valor
Vandalis Beastkeeper, ecl 5, Eberron: Dragonmarked
Bone Knight, ecl 6, Eberron: Five Nations


special mention
Wizard 5 (High One Warrior-Wizard substitution level), Champions of Valor web enhancement, combines mount and familiar
Devoted Tracker, feat, Complete Adventurer - stack benefits of animal companion and mount
Swift Call, feat, Complete Champion, call mount as a swift action
Drow Judicator 5, ecl 12, FR: Underdark, call a spider servant
Celestial Mount, feat, Book of Exalted Deeds, mount gains celestial template
Sanctified One (Elhonna) 1 or 3 or 5/5, ecl 6, Complete Champion, "nature's mount" see text

I don't know much about paladins, so I can't do a lot more to help than that.

Edit: IIRC, Races of the Dragon has rules for using a Dragon as a special mount.

[bigdaddy843]

Thank's a lot for the quick response. It's definitely helpful in the are of the mounted paladin. Unfortunately (i should have mentioned it), i would prefer a paladin that's non-reliant on his mount. As i believe that a paladin's reliance on a mount (though privvy to incredible amounts of chrage damage with a lance/spear) is also a weakness. One can hardly bring a mount and use it effectively on a ship, in a dungeon in a cave or in a city (all of which are my favoured/oft encountered environments). However, i thank you very much for the help. It will help anyone looking for a riding paladin.

[Negative Zero]

If you're looking to avoid the mount issue, there are probably variants for non-mounted Paladins.

(Incidentally, a young Dragon mount could probably be taken into a dungeon without much complaining)

[Shadowhunter]

Charging Smite, PHBII IIRC.
Sub.level at the level you would get a mount.

However, if you smite evil during a charge, you gain more damage.
I think it's 2 more points per class level, but you better check it yourself.

A question I think is in order:

How much of the class Paladin, would you want?
I've seen builds I would from a roleplaying perspective call paladins, though not from a mechanical.
Like some mix of Paladin of Freedom, Sorcerer/Bard, Swiftblades, Abjurant Champions.
Granted, that's a CHA-Gish, but character-wise, I would say it remains a paladin, since it relies on it's paladin abilities and don't waiver from the code.

OTOH, there's the pure divine Paladin, which I'll let others handle.
For some reason, I know much more of how to make good arcane casters than divine ones.

Depending on your answer, this might help people help you.
Just a thought.

[ninjarabbit]

If you play a small paladin like a halfling or gnome you can have a medium-sized mount and take it places a large sized mount can't go.

[Smudgy]

Is it a good campaign? If some more flexibility is allowed, Paladin of Tyranny is a great choice. Combine it with Hexblade and Blackguard for some monstrous saves. A few good feats off the top of my head are Battle Blessing and Awesome Smite, both from Complete Champion. Swift casting on all of your spells and more versatility with your smites is always great.

[SorO_Lost]

Cleric 8
Domains: Knowledge, Planning
Take Knowledge Devotion and DMM-related feats.

Contemplative 1
Pick up the War domain, Holy Warrior, and immunity to disease all in one level.

Fist of Razial 10
Full BAB & spellcasting, 5/day fiend superholy chain smiting, 24/7 magic circle vs evil.

Contemplative +1 or Pious Templar 1
Slippery Mind or Mettle and a loss of cl, your choice.

DMM, 9th level spells, +9 damage on all attacks with knowledge rolls for more, better smite abilities than a paladin, free magic circle vs evil, immune to all disease instead of cure once per week, the ability to just call or dominate anything you want as a mount. After WotC was done with D&D, paladins suck at being paladins.

[Omen of Peace]

Cleric into Ordained Champion (CC) can easily call itself a paladin too. Unfortunately optimized paladins are made using Cleric - or Crusader.

For a build actually using Paladin of Freedom, a dip in Bard could be useful with one of the stacking feats: Devoted Performer (CAdv) or Initiate of Milil (but that's a FR book). DevPerf gets you bardic music uses, which you can use with Doomspeak (Champions of Ruin - that's FR too) for debuffing or Ironskin Chant (CAdv - not that good) for temporary DR.

And, er, I'm realizing I'm talking about Bard stuff - a personal bias showing.

For a Charging Smite paladin: Power Attack, Divine Might, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper...

[bigdaddy843]

Thank's a lot. It's not a good campaign, but it's my preference to play a good character.

The amount of paladin i need in the character is actually zero. I'm thinking of playing anything along the lines of a paladin. Would anyone be so kind as to mention similar/better classes?

Although i do note that bard would make an excellent dip for a paladin of freedom, it seems flavour-wise lacking. I'm not sure exactly what dipping into bard or cleric would entail.

Regarding this:

Cleric 8
Domains: Knowledge, Planning
Take Knowledge Devotion and DMM-related feats.

Contemplative 1
Pick up the War domain, Holy Warrior, and immunity to disease all in one level.

Fist of Razial 10
Full BAB & spellcasting, 5/day fiend superholy chain smiting, 24/7 magic circle vs evil.

Contemplative +1 or Pious Templar 1
Slippery Mind or Mettle and a loss of cl, your choice.

DMM, 9th level spells, +9 damage on all attacks with knowledge rolls for more, better smite abilities than a paladin, free magic circle vs evil, immune to all disease instead of cure once per week, the ability to just call or dominate anything you want as a mount. After WotC was done with D&D, paladins suck at being paladins.

It's very interesting. what do you mean by holy warrior (in the 1 lvl of contemplative), how do you meet the class requirements of fist of Raziel and exactly what feats do you reccomend? (>_< i don't know what's DMM).

Thank's a lot everyone!!!

[kurashu]

My favorite non-paladin paladin is archivist 4/ordained champion 3/knight of the raven 3/fist of raziel 10. You lose three caster level, but you get all divine spells, smite evil 5/day, turn undead, channel spell, all divine spells constant magic circle against evil, sanctify martial strike, all divine spells, divine bulwark, smite, smite undead 1/day, raven harrier, sun domain, and probably some other things as well. Did I mention you get all divine spells?

Alternatively, Paladin 5/Pious Templar 5/Grey Guard 10 is also a good build that's rather straight forward. Argue that battle blessing should apply to Pious Templar spells since they are drawn from the paladin's list. There's also Paladin 17/Bard 1/Monk 2 with devoted performer, initiate of milil and ascetic knight.

[bigdaddy843]

I think i'll be heading for Cleric 6/Contemplative 2/PRC Pala 2/FoR 10

Any opinions? please? thank you.


PS. The serenity feat appears to be banned. but i got VERY good stats, so it should be ok to play with both high wisdom and charisma

[Blade2718]

I think i'll be heading for Cleric 6/Contemplative 2/PRC Pala 2/FoR 10

Any opinions? please? thank you.


PS. The serenity feat appears to be banned. but i got VERY good stats, so it should be ok to play with both high wisdom and charisma

You don't qualify for Contemplative until level 11, and Prestige Paladin gets another spellcasting level at 3.

[bigdaddy843]

Sorry >_< classes not listed in order of taking up.
I checked the D20 Srd. PRC palas gain casting levels every even level. Taking a 3rd level of it would mean losing 9th level spells.
Please tell me if there are ways around this. Thank you.

[Chemus]

I think perhaps you're reading it wrong...it's +1 level casting at every odd level.

[SorO_Lost]

It's very interesting. what do you mean by holy warrior (in the 1 lvl of contemplative), how do you meet the class requirements of fist of Raziel and exactly what feats do you reccomend? (>_< i don't know what's DMM).

Contemplative (CD)
K-Religion 13, 1st level divine spells, RP; talk to someone highly special in your alignment/church.

Fist of Raziel (BoED & Online)
Lawful Good, BAB +6, Diplomacy 5, K-Religion 5, Power Attack, Servant of the Heavens, must be able to cast Divine Favor.

DMM = Divine Metamagic (CD)
There is two combos that start out with DMM. Taking Quicken Spell & DMM(quicken) so you can quicken your spells ten levels before anyone else. Or play a human/flaws and use the Planning Domain(whatbook?) to net 24 hour buffs.


Feat recommendation, hmm, how about...
Free: Expend Spell (planning domain), Not-A-Feat All Knowledge Skills On Skill List (knowledge domain)
Human: Persistent Spell
1: Divine Metamagic
3: Power Attack
6: Servant of the Heavens // 1/day +1 luck to any roll when preforming a good act.
9: Knowledge Devotion // Knowedge check for +((check-10)/5) on attack & damage rolls.
Free: Weapon Focus (war domain)
12: Holy Warrior // Reserve, highest war domain spell to all weapon damage.
15: Extra Turning / Quicken Spell / Anything
18: Extra Turning / Divine Metamagic / Anything

If you don't have enough (12~14) int to pick up both K-Religion, Planes, and Nature/Local then don't bother with the Knowledge Domain and Knowledge Devotion and take something else.

[Omen of Peace]

Having re-read FoR I would recommend Ordained Champion (CC) instead. You can take only 3 levels if you don't want to lose more than 1 spellcasting level. You get to channel spells however you want and to smite as long as you have turning attempts (among numerous other benefits). You don't even spend a feat on qualification if you take the War domain.

Cloistered Cleric 4/OC 3 or 5/X
Sacred Exorcist or Contemplative are good fillers after OC - also take a look at aftercrescent's cleric handbook on these boards.

[bigdaddy843]

Ordained Champion looks good except for the lack of divine grace.

You were right about the spell  progression for Prc Pala. Sorry for the mistake on my part.

Now the problem i'm having is balancing all those feats.
Starting at level 5, my starting feats are DMM, Persistent Spell, Knowledge devotion and Extend Spell (comes with planning domain). But now i don't have enough feats to make the pre-req of prc-pala/ordained champion AND Fist of Raziel.

Help Please!!!! Thank's.

[SorO_Lost]

Ordained Champion looks good except for the lack of divine grace.

You were right about the spell  progression for Prc Pala. Sorry for the mistake on my part.

Now the problem i'm having is balancing all those feats.
Starting at level 5, my starting feats are DMM, Persistent Spell, Knowledge devotion and Extend Spell (comes with planning domain). But now i don't have enough feats to make the pre-req of prc-pala/ordained champion AND Fist of Raziel.

Help Please!!!! Thank's.

Then remove something.

Cleric 6 / Ordained Champion 3 / Fist of Raziel X
Domains: Planning & War
Free: Extend Spell, Weapon Focus
1: Persistent Spell
3: DMM
6: Power Attack
9: Servant of the Heavens
Could do it. If your still wanting the Knowledge Devotion feat you'll have to be a human, plus the extra skill can be used to pick up a knowledge skill to support it.


I suppose if you can wait on the DMM boost, like if the rest of your party sucks, this can work too.

Cleric 5 / Ordained Champion 3 / Fist of Raziel 1 / Contemplative 1 / Fist of Raziel +9
Domains: War & Knowledge
Free: Weapon Focus
1: Servant of the Heavens
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Any / Extra Turning / Quicken Spell
Free: Give up the knowledge domains power (worthless at this point) for Power Attack
9: Take Persistent Spell here later if you can retrain feats (DMGII)
Free: Extend Spell (planning domain)
12: Divine Metamagic(persistent spell)
15: Any / Divine Metamagic(quicken spell)
18: Any

[Blade2718]

Ordained Champion looks good except for the lack of divine grace.

You were right about the spell  progression for Prc Pala. Sorry for the mistake on my part.

Now the problem i'm having is balancing all those feats.
Starting at level 5, my starting feats are DMM, Persistent Spell, Knowledge devotion and Extend Spell (comes with planning domain). But now i don't have enough feats to make the pre-req of prc-pala/ordained champion AND Fist of Raziel.

Help Please!!!! Thank's.

I'd actually skip DMM and Persistant Spell if you plan on going with Ordained Champion because you get spontaneous swift-action War spells.  Yes, it burns a lot of spells, but I think it's worth the feat savings.

Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Ordained Champion +2/Fist of Raziel 7 gives 8th level spells, BAB 18, and a bunch of goodies.
Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Fist of Raziel 9 is another option that grants fewer goodies but 9th level spells.