The Druid Handbook

[Propaganda]

Dragon wildshape optimization question:

If you (and your DM) buy the argument that spellcasting is ex, it follows that if you wildshape into a young adult Steel Dragon (15 hd), you gain the abilities of a 9th level sorcerer.

1.  Am I understanding this correctly?

2. How might a druid best optimize their choices of up to 4th level wiz/sorcerer spells?

(Apologies if  this is not the right topic for this question.)

I think you should make a new thread in the normal Min/Max forum. You could get all sorts of input.

Ok.  Will follow your suggestion, Suzerain.  Moving the topic there.

(Also:  thanks for the first reply, Solo.)

[Jopustopin]

Warrior Poet

Neutral Good Human druid 20 (Rolled Stats, no flaws - traits)

gargantuan Humanoid (Wild Shape: Dire Polar Bear w/enlarge person)

Hit Dice: 20d8+80
Initiative: +2
Speed: 35
Armor Class: 31 Touch: 8 Flat-footed: 29
Base Attack: +15
Attack: (+15 bab +18 strength +1 Enhancement -4 size) Unarmed Strike +30 (6d6+19/x2)
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +28/+28/+23/+18 (6d6+19/x2) and Bite+23 (4d8+10/x2) and Claw +23 (2d6+10/x2)
Space/Reach: 20ft/15ft
Special Attacks:Improved Grab
Grapple: (+15 bab +18 strength +12 size +4 Improved Grapple) +49
Saves: +21, +6, +19
Abilities: str 46 (Dire Polar Bear, +5 enhancement, +2 size), dex 14 (Dire Polar Bear, +5 enhancement, -2 size), con 29/16 (Dire Polar Bear/Natural, +6 Enhancement), int 10, wis 24 (+6 levels +5 enhancement), cha 9
Skills: Spellcraft +23, Concentration +32, Knowledge (Nature) +27, Balance +22, Appraise +1, Handle Animal +8, Survival +14, Tumble +2
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike ^1st, Improved Toughness ^Human, Improved Grapple ^3rd, Natural Spell ^6th, Superior Unarmed Strike^9th, Lion's Pounce^12th, Snap Kick^15th, Stunning Fist^18th.
Languages Spoken: Ice Folk, Common, Druidic
Level Adjustment: +0.

Notable Possessions: +1 Wild Chitin Full Plate, +1 Animated Chitin Heavy Shield, Necklace of Natural Attacks (+1 Transmuting Unarmed Strike/Bite/Claw), Belt of Growth


Various Notes:

• I am currently playing this druid and am level 1.
• I used the same formatting for this as the Hexblade builds provided by DM.
• My starting stats were str 5, dex 4, con 10, int 10, wis 13, cha 9
• I played them for no other reason than my group is terrible at optimizing and didn't want to show them up completely.
• Balance is a class skill due to a regional choice I made in Dragonlance; I had to spend 2 skill points to speak common.  Like most fighters it doesn't matter where you spend your skills although Spellcraft is for epic.
• Charge + Pounce + Snap Kick: Kick/Punch/Punch/Punch/Bite/Claw; if you hit with the claw start a grapple as a free action.
• I used these rules for mixing natural and unarmed strikes: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

[cru]

How are you getting +5 enhancement bonus to stats?
Is Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) a valid choice for a non-monk?

[Jopustopin]

1) I didn't bother to look them up; belt of giant strength + wilding clasp etc.  To get odd bonus's look in the DMG it's like bonus ^2 * 1000 gold pieces.

2) Yes.

[Phaxi]

2) Yes.

Improved unarmed strike =/= the monk Unarmed Strike class feature. Non-monk humans dont have any natural weapons. But I guess its up to your DM.

[Ivory Knight]

Acutally Improved Unarmed Strike is a Feat, you can look it up in the SRD
IIRC the monk gets the feat automatically, but fighters can choose it as a bonus feat.

[Jopustopin]

Well I learn something new everyday.  I'll just change the feat.  What is an unarmed strike considered? It seems to be neither manufactured or natural.

[Rebel7284]

Well I learn something new everyday.  I'll just change the feat.  What is an unarmed strike considered? It seems to be neither manufactured or natural.

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. "

 I think this may apply to all characters with the improved unarmed strike feat.

[Optimator]

Well I learn something new everyday.  I'll just change the feat.  What is an unarmed strike considered? It seems to be neither manufactured or natural.

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. "

 I think this may apply to all characters with the improved unarmed strike feat.

I was under the impression that was a Monk perk only.

[Jopustopin]

I spent like an hour going around looking at previous arguments from yesteryear.  It appears that the reason unarmed strike do not count as "natural attacks" is because unarmed strikes get iterative attacks and natural attacks do not.  They are also not "manufactured weapons" (unless you're wearing a gauntlet)  Thus Unarmed strike is neither manufactured or natural.  Unless you're a monk then it's both manufactured and natural.  It's slightly ridiculous and probably should have been defined better.

[Akalsaris]

As a sidenote, the Half-Orc Druid substitution levels are terrific for a tanking druid.  Increases your HD to a d10 on each of the 3 levels, and gives your AC toughness at 1st level (when it's actually useful).  Plus, a Dragonborn Desert Half-Orc has -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int and some dragonborn stuff like a breath weapon.  All very solid stuff for a druid.

[wotmaniac]

As a sidenote, the Half-Orc Druid substitution levels are terrific for a tanking druid.  Increases your HD to a d10 on each of the 3 levels, and gives your AC toughness at 1st level (when it's actually useful).  Plus, a Dragonborn Desert Half-Orc has -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int and some dragonborn stuff like a breath weapon.  All very solid stuff for a druid.

don't for get augment summoning for the low, low price of 1 use of wild shape per day
and my favorite feature -- bully animal (the imagery of that cracks me up every time).

[Akalsaris]

I just picture the druid wildshaping into a dire bear and growling until the wolves tuck their tails between their legs, roll over onto their bellies, and try to make him happy.

[Nunkuruji]

• Timeless Body (Ex): Say goodbye to aging penalties!  If you're starting at this level, feel free to age yourself to venerable for the extra untyped +3 to mental stats.

If you want to age cheese it, without the I've Only Got 5 Years to Live stigma, an Old Killoren might be appropriate. Immortal, and can still pick up the Old Age category mental bonuses.

[stenver]

If level 20 druid wild shapes into a wolf, does the wild form get bonus HD, so it equals druids?

[Havok4]

A druid would keep his own HD, HP and BAB which are derived from his druid HD. If you are asking if you turn into an advanced version of the creature I believe the answer is no.

[stenver]

so basically, fleshdraker dinosaur is going to get useless eventually. Since at level 20 there are far better grapplers and higher strenght classes. Am i correct? If i am, then, when is a good time to switch fleshdraker to something more advanced?

[Freshums]

so basically, fleshdraker dinosaur is going to get useless eventually. Since at level 20 there are far better grapplers and higher strenght classes. Am i correct? If i am, then, when is a good time to switch fleshdraker to something more advanced?

Whenever your class features give you a larger size category to shift into.

[Akalsaris]

so basically, fleshdraker dinosaur is going to get useless eventually. Since at level 20 there are far better grapplers and higher strenght classes. Am i correct? If i am, then, when is a good time to switch fleshdraker to something more advanced?

Eventually there might be better animals, but remember that tight spaces inside dungeons and houses are an issue for large/huge wildshape forms.  There just aren't many good medium sized forms, so the fleshraker remains solid pretty much from 5-20.  Anytime you're outdoors, of course, a dire bear or whatever will probably be better though.

[Akkristor]

so basically, fleshdraker dinosaur is going to get useless eventually. Since at level 20 there are far better grapplers and higher strenght classes. Am i correct? If i am, then, when is a good time to switch fleshdraker to something more advanced?

Remember also that while the save DC for the Fleshraker's poison is based off it's CON, it is also half your Hit Dice.  A 20th level Druid wild shaped into a Fleshraker has more virulent poison than a 8th level druid would.