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Author Topic: Rules check: Ardent + Practiced =/= access higher powers?  (Read 2358 times)
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nijineko
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« on: October 25, 2011, 01:58:23 AM »

Quote
...an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost.

In other words at any even level, they could only learn powers from their mantles that cost 2, 4, 6 (and so on) or less pp to manifest.

This seems pretty clear that it means:  class level == max power points == max power level known.

Manifester level, effective manifester level, character level, and HD never enters the picture, thus Practiced Manifester cannot boost what powers can be selected?

Is there anything else that would support the theory of Practiced Manifester?
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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2011, 05:29:29 AM »

Quote
...an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost.


Emphasis mine.  A Fighter 4/Ardent 2 with Practiced Manifester is at a level capable of manifesting a power that costs 6pp.
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skydragonknight
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« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2011, 05:58:31 AM »

Technically, they don't even say 'class level' in that quote and the default for 'level' is 'charater level', so a Psychic Warrior 8/Ardent 1 could pick up a power with a cost of 9 PP or less and use his Psiwar PP to manifest it.

I think the most sane reading is sirpercival's that "level capable of manifesting a power with that cost" refers to manifester level, since (as a comparison) a 8th level psion with, say an orange ioun stone could manifest a 5th level power from a power stone without a check, even though he's not 9th level.
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2011, 06:31:35 AM »

Look at the whole text:
Quote
At each additional level, an ardent learns one new power from her available mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however. For example,...(unimportant stuff since it's part of the example)
You need Manifester level = Power points needed to manifest a power.
So skydragonknight's thing won't work since it treats the example as RAW, but that would work wrong (as we know, many examples are wrong/bad written). But you can go Ardent 1/Fighter 4/Ardent +1 with Practised Manifester and learn 6pp-Powers. That's why it's really great for many builds to use Ardent 1.
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Mixster
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2011, 07:50:50 AM »

Look at the whole text:
Quote
At each additional level, an ardent learns one new power from her available mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however. For example,...(unimportant stuff since it's part of the example)
You need Manifester level = Power points needed to manifest a power.
So skydragonknight's thing won't work since it treats the example as RAW, but that would work wrong (as we know, many examples are wrong/bad written). But you can go Ardent 1/Fighter 4/Ardent +1 with Practised Manifester and learn 6pp-Powers. That's why it's really great for many builds to use Ardent 1.
But you can get around that with being Psionic Class X 8/Ardent 1 with practiced manifest for your non-ardent class. Then you can choose any power from your Mantle that you could Manifest with PP, IE any power costing up to 9 PP.
Suddenly Ardent became an awesome Psionic Dip class.
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skydragonknight
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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2011, 08:40:09 AM »

So skydragonknight's thing won't work since it treats the example as RAW, but that would work wrong (as we know, many examples are wrong/bad written). But you can go Ardent 1/Fighter 4/Ardent +1 with Practised Manifester and learn 6pp-Powers. That's why it's really great for many builds to use Ardent 1.

Pretty much. That was simply a demo of there being many different ways to read a passage depending on which words you focus on. Overall, "manifester level" is the most rules-consistent because it determines how much PP you can spend to manifest a power.

But you can get around that with being Psionic Class X 8/Ardent 1 with practiced manifest for your non-ardent class. Then you can choose any power from your Mantle that you could Manifest with PP, IE any power costing up to 9 PP.
Suddenly Ardent became an awesome Psionic Dip class.

Well, you could learn it, but you wouldn't be able to manifest it, so its mostly a novelty. PP pool is shared by classes, but the manifester level for a power is the same as the manifester level of the class it came from.
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nijineko
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« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2011, 03:06:33 PM »

Quote
...an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost.


Emphasis mine.  A Fighter 4/Ardent 2 with Practiced Manifester is at a level capable of manifesting a power that costs 6pp.

thank you everyone for the various readings, this is what i was looking for. i think i better understand where the interpretation is coming from.

however, i do not think it is correct to assume manifester level, when your emphasized phrase seems to be pointing at class level. for every other psionic class, it is not manifester level which determines powers selected/learned at a given level, but rather class level; thus the default interpretation should be class level in this case, not character level as has been suggested... which suggestion i would happen to agree with if this were not a spell/power selection/learning by level example.

furthermore, "attaining a level" is very close with other class level selection, ie: leveling up via xp, references and phraseology. i cannot think of any other single instance, be it caster level or manifester level, where a word like "attaining" is used in the reference... unless i'm just wrong, that is what the designers meant, and ardent is the first such reference.

but i have another thought as further circumstantial support. whenever a new mechanic is introduced, it is usually accompanied by large text blocks explaining it... re: erudite unique pp/d, skill tricks, incarnum, shadow/binding/truename, and so on. if the designers had intended to introduce a new and unique mechanic that represents a departure from every other psionic class and prestige in the game by allowing powers known to be picked by manifester level rather than class level, that there would at least be one explicit mention somewhere.

also, in conversations i've had with the designers, they were required to stick to core and the book they were working on as much as possible, keeping "required to play" books other than core to a minimum. anyone happen to know when the practiced manifester and practiced caster feats were published in relationship to comp psi? if that feat first appeared in comp psi, i would take it as indication that manifester level based power selection might have been the intention.

i think my first and second points are pretty solid.
the third and fourth points are a pair of shaky limbs perhaps, given the many famous editing goofs, but i feel worth mentioning.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 03:33:07 PM by nijineko » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2011, 06:23:44 PM »


iirc - the old psi board went:

a) ... obviously the max power column is missing
b) ... obviously the max powers "should" be what ??
b.1) .... like Psion
b.2) .... like PsyWar
b.3) .... like 3.0e Psion
b.4) .... like any of the weird progressions floating around Mind's Eye
c) ... anytime they wanna put out errata for this they can ; but believe it when you see it
d) ... we know r.a.i. that it woulda been something
e) ... XPH has a ML to power level rule (idk what at this point)
f) ... hey here's a nifty little trick we can do to make up for how Ardents are weak compared to Clerics

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skydragonknight
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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2011, 09:26:11 PM »

Every other psionic class has max power level listed in a table. Yet for ardent all they get is "they must be able to manifest it at the level when they learn it" which isn't helpful at all by itself. Also in the example a fifth level ardent doesn't learn a power of 3rd level or lower but "a power that costs 5 pp or less to manifest."

So it's already different in that respect from psion or psychic warrior. Note that combining the two quotes to "they must be able to manifest a power of that PP at the level they learn it" has no inconsistencies until Practiced Manifester/Overchannel enter the picture, so it's a viable definition just with strange interactions.

And Practiced Manifester is from the same book, Complete Psionics.
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nijineko
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2011, 11:26:45 PM »

Well, then I can see where it is coming from and why. Next time I'm chatting with the author, i'll ask.
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2011, 05:15:21 PM »

Ahh ... Sky's got it.


I'm sure the author didn't intend , what the old CO and Psi boards came up with in response.
But it was and still is , fun.

Ardent with no sub powers, and with say the Psion max power known,
is just not really worth playing.
Fighter 1 / Psion 5 or 6 / Anarch Initiate X ... is better ; and obviously.

If they had insisted (or will insist) on a max power known,
it would basically invalidate all the Ardent builds CO came up with.
This design of Ardent could be re-merged with it's old stable mate the Divine Mind.
Lots of OK-ish class feature combos on up to about level 15,
from there it'd have few high level "spell" choices, and fall behind.
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nijineko
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2011, 03:57:02 PM »

well, i asked Mr. Cordell, he said, "class level". ^^

but, it is a game, so that would only matter to rules lawyer types.
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2011, 04:30:44 PM »

well, i asked Mr. Cordell, he said, "class level". ^^

but, it is a game, so that would only matter to rules lawyer types.

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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2011, 04:53:25 PM »

well, i asked Mr. Cordell, he said, "class level". ^^

but, it is a game, so that would only matter to rules lawyer types.
Wouldn't that not only ruin basically every single decent build for ardents, but also ruin manifesting PrCs for them as well?
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nijineko
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2011, 05:48:13 PM »

i would think that the "gain powers known as the class" bit would still allow for progression via prestige.

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