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Author Topic: A crazy idea. 10x WBL table campaign. [Discussion on Relative Power]  (Read 4341 times)
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brujon
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« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2011, 12:41:16 AM »

Are you nuts?!  Skill check (easily cranked up through the roof if you want to) or become flat-footed for a scaling length of time, based on how overwhelming the skill check was?  That might be the most powerful superpower in the bunch, the only thing keeping it from being a sure thing is it being based on a fear ability (which many things are immune to, directly or indirectly).  The cleric's full BAB + an extra feat every 4 levels is the weak link, there.  Cleric already has full BAB from 7th level onward, and feats don't mean a whole lot compared to full casting.

I forgot to say that it fixed his HP at a d12, too. But anyhow... This meant he had freedom to go the squishy spellcaster route and be a gish and get the feats needed to make a charger, and still have the feats to qualify to fullcasting prestiges. I'd think that is pretty strong. All one needed to be immune to the Factotum is be a Vermin, or immune to mind-affecting, which can be granted by a simple protection from evil spell.
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Bard
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« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2011, 12:50:22 AM »

Are you nuts?!  Skill check (easily cranked up through the roof if you want to) or become flat-footed for a scaling length of time, based on how overwhelming the skill check was?  That might be the most powerful superpower in the bunch, the only thing keeping it from being a sure thing is it being based on a fear ability (which many things are immune to, directly or indirectly).  The cleric's full BAB + an extra feat every 4 levels is the weak link, there.  Cleric already has full BAB from 7th level onward, and feats don't mean a whole lot compared to full casting.
I suspect that either he had EWP(Gnomish Quickrazor) and Skill Focus(Iaijutsu Focus) or he had something of the sort planned or yeah he could have choosen something better... anyway I think the cleric got the short end of the stick there, but again, it's a short stick attached to a long long long pole.
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His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
brujon
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« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2011, 12:53:35 AM »

Are you nuts?!  Skill check (easily cranked up through the roof if you want to) or become flat-footed for a scaling length of time, based on how overwhelming the skill check was?  That might be the most powerful superpower in the bunch, the only thing keeping it from being a sure thing is it being based on a fear ability (which many things are immune to, directly or indirectly).  The cleric's full BAB + an extra feat every 4 levels is the weak link, there.  Cleric already has full BAB from 7th level onward, and feats don't mean a whole lot compared to full casting.
I suspect that either he had EWP(Gnomish Quickrazor) and Skill Focus(Iaijutsu Focus) or he had something of the sort planned or yeah he could have choosen something better... anyway I think the cleric got the short end of the stick there, but again, it's a short stick attached to a long long long pole.

Yeah, he used Iaijutsu. Grin
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weenog
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« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2011, 01:14:34 AM »

All one needed to be immune to the Factotum is be a Vermin, or immune to mind-affecting, which can be granted by a simple protection from evil spell.

No.  Protection from evil grants the beneficiary immunity to possession and to ongoing control, not to all mind-affecting effects.

I wonder if you might not benefit from re-reading the Core 3 from cover to cover and taking notes.
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Sir Giacomo
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« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2011, 01:44:56 AM »

Hi, brujon!

An interesting idea you have there, which I have also already thought about a bit.
The answer, in theory (I have never tried this out so far?), is probably something like this:

With 10x wbl, non-casters get more powerful than casters, since the big shtick of casters (magic) diminishes in relative importance. However, this should be hardly noticeable, since such high wbl makes class abilities in general much less important when looking at a character's total power.

Meanwhile, a BBEG with 20x wbl is going to be quite nasty...easily multiplying in CR...

- Giacomo

PS @ JaronK: color spray forces wizard into melee range at low level = dead wizard.
Color spray is a big trap for a wizard player to choose. Way too risky. Wink
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Bard
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« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2011, 02:04:03 AM »

PS @ JaronK: color spray forces wizard into melee range at low level = dead wizard.
Color spray is a big trap for a wizard player to choose. Way too risky. Wink
It really depends on the wizard... with a nice int score and a snowcasting TS build, there's really little than can remain standing from it.
And as with all spellcasting it ALWAYS depends on the situation, in a good one it can end the encounter... in a bad one the zombies smack you in the face laughing at your mind-affecting sheanigans.
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His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
Sir Giacomo
That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
****
Posts: 259


« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2011, 04:23:22 AM »

PS @ JaronK: color spray forces wizard into melee range at low level = dead wizard.
Color spray is a big trap for a wizard player to choose. Way too risky. Wink
It really depends on the wizard... with a nice int score and a snowcasting TS build, there's really little than can remain standing from it.
And as with all spellcasting it ALWAYS depends on the situation, in a good one it can end the encounter... in a bad one the zombies smack you in the face laughing at your mind-affecting sheanigans.

True. However, I think the risk involved and/or too few really good situations coming up make the spell relatively unattractive imo.

- Giacomo
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Mooncrow
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« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2011, 07:41:12 AM »

PS @ JaronK: color spray forces wizard into melee range at low level = dead wizard.
Color spray is a big trap for a wizard player to choose. Way too risky. Wink
It really depends on the wizard... with a nice int score and a snowcasting TS build, there's really little than can remain standing from it.
And as with all spellcasting it ALWAYS depends on the situation, in a good one it can end the encounter... in a bad one the zombies smack you in the face laughing at your mind-affecting sheanigans.

True. However, I think the risk involved and/or too few really good situations coming up make the spell relatively unattractive imo.

- Giacomo

It's less "forces you into melee" and more "when you're forced into melee".  And when you are, it's right tool for the job.  In my experience, especially at low levels when there are few tools for battlefield control, that's a fairly common occurrence.  For staying long range. there's sleep, though obviously, that loses effectiveness rather quickly.
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X-Codes
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« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2011, 10:20:57 AM »

PS @ JaronK: color spray forces wizard into melee range at low level = dead wizard.
Color spray is a big trap for a wizard player to choose. Way too risky. Wink
It really depends on the wizard... with a nice int score and a snowcasting TS build, there's really little than can remain standing from it.
And as with all spellcasting it ALWAYS depends on the situation, in a good one it can end the encounter... in a bad one the zombies smack you in the face laughing at your mind-affecting sheanigans.

True. However, I think the risk involved and/or too few really good situations coming up make the spell relatively unattractive imo.

- Giacomo

It's less "forces you into melee" and more "when you're forced into melee".  And when you are, it's right tool for the job.  In my experience, especially at low levels when there are few tools for battlefield control, that's a fairly common occurrence.  For staying long range. there's sleep, though obviously, that loses effectiveness rather quickly.
Feed not yon troll.

Seriously, the awesomeness of wizards is well established.  Giacomo is just an idiot or an asshole looking to waste our time arguing over it.
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Mooncrow
That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
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Posts: 228



« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2011, 10:56:35 AM »

PS @ JaronK: color spray forces wizard into melee range at low level = dead wizard.
Color spray is a big trap for a wizard player to choose. Way too risky. Wink
It really depends on the wizard... with a nice int score and a snowcasting TS build, there's really little than can remain standing from it.
And as with all spellcasting it ALWAYS depends on the situation, in a good one it can end the encounter... in a bad one the zombies smack you in the face laughing at your mind-affecting sheanigans.

True. However, I think the risk involved and/or too few really good situations coming up make the spell relatively unattractive imo.

- Giacomo

It's less "forces you into melee" and more "when you're forced into melee".  And when you are, it's right tool for the job.  In my experience, especially at low levels when there are few tools for battlefield control, that's a fairly common occurrence.  For staying long range. there's sleep, though obviously, that loses effectiveness rather quickly.
Feed not yon troll.

Seriously, the awesomeness of wizards is well established.  Giacomo is just an idiot or an asshole looking to waste our time arguing over it.

That will teach me to post right when I get up, I didn't even look at who was posting...
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Halinn
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« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2011, 10:59:15 AM »

With 10x wbl, non-casters get more powerful than casters, since the big shtick of casters (magic) diminishes in relative importance. However, this should be hardly noticeable, since such high wbl makes class abilities in general much less important when looking at a character's total power.
They still don't get more powerful than casters. They (probably) get more powerful relative to casters, so they're not as far behind as they were. More wealth to casters means better access to things like metamagic rods, runestaves etc.
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sirpercival
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« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2011, 11:29:51 AM »

I don't know... I think for a caster in a 10x WBL game it would remove the only difficulty a wizard has, which is having the right spells at any given time.  With contingent spells and staves with whatever spell I wanted, I could have all my spells available at all times.
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Bastian
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« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2011, 01:12:49 PM »

Mainly, the Artificer, i think, loses most of it's advantages because they can no longer cheat WBL, though with all the other abilities i don't think how much they'll drop in the tier system.
*facepalm* The Artificer gains in power a huge amount in this system since they are so wealth dependent. They can craft ten times as much as they could normally, without having to waste feats on cost reduction (all of those feats can be spent simply increasing the power of what they make). Furthermore, since XP is a river the lack of XP reduction doesn't hurt them (not to mention it can be replaced by spending psuedo-XP like liquid pain, souls, or liquid pleasure, unless that counts as cost reduction in your book).
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SorO_Lost
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« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2011, 04:31:37 PM »

How about we all agree x10 wealth lets you buy several forms of casting but the caster always has one set more and they love to use Disjunction and leave it at that?
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Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2011, 05:30:52 PM »

Mainly, the Artificer, i think, loses most of it's advantages because they can no longer cheat WBL, though with all the other abilities i don't think how much they'll drop in the tier system.
*facepalm* The Artificer gains in power a huge amount in this system since they are so wealth dependent. They can craft ten times as much as they could normally, without having to waste feats on cost reduction (all of those feats can be spent simply increasing the power of what they make). Furthermore, since XP is a river the lack of XP reduction doesn't hurt them (not to mention it can be replaced by spending psuedo-XP like liquid pain, souls, or liquid pleasure, unless that counts as cost reduction in your book).
He did say 'no crafting,' which makes the artificer's crafting pool completely irrelevant to anything, as well as all of those crafting feats (until he buys a bunch of DCFS scrolls, anyway, with all the extra wealth).

Though I'm sure he could set up a dedicated wright factory and get around the 'no down time' thing.
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Bastian
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« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2011, 10:22:47 AM »

Mainly, the Artificer, i think, loses most of it's advantages because they can no longer cheat WBL, though with all the other abilities i don't think how much they'll drop in the tier system.
*facepalm* The Artificer gains in power a huge amount in this system since they are so wealth dependent. They can craft ten times as much as they could normally, without having to waste feats on cost reduction (all of those feats can be spent simply increasing the power of what they make). Furthermore, since XP is a river the lack of XP reduction doesn't hurt them (not to mention it can be replaced by spending psuedo-XP like liquid pain, souls, or liquid pleasure, unless that counts as cost reduction in your book).
He did say 'no crafting,' which makes the artificer's crafting pool completely irrelevant to anything, as well as all of those crafting feats (until he buys a bunch of DCFS scrolls, anyway, with all the extra wealth).

Though I'm sure he could set up a dedicated wright factory and get around the 'no down time' thing.
No, he said no cost reduction. In fact what he said about crafting was "PC crafting continues to be a valid option, thoroughly expanded by the vast amounts of gold you'll be accumulating. "
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #56 on: October 28, 2011, 04:34:28 PM »

Mainly, the Artificer, i think, loses most of it's advantages because they can no longer cheat WBL, though with all the other abilities i don't think how much they'll drop in the tier system.
*facepalm* The Artificer gains in power a huge amount in this system since they are so wealth dependent. They can craft ten times as much as they could normally, without having to waste feats on cost reduction (all of those feats can be spent simply increasing the power of what they make). Furthermore, since XP is a river the lack of XP reduction doesn't hurt them (not to mention it can be replaced by spending psuedo-XP like liquid pain, souls, or liquid pleasure, unless that counts as cost reduction in your book).
He did say 'no crafting,' which makes the artificer's crafting pool completely irrelevant to anything, as well as all of those crafting feats (until he buys a bunch of DCFS scrolls, anyway, with all the extra wealth).

Though I'm sure he could set up a dedicated wright factory and get around the 'no down time' thing.
No, he said no cost reduction. In fact what he said about crafting was "PC crafting continues to be a valid option, thoroughly expanded by the vast amounts of gold you'll be accumulating. "
Ah. I misread it then.

Though considering how few crafting points and/or XP characters get vs the amount of money they have, it's not a particularly large boost until the artificer can drain magic items.
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Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 Big Grin
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
awaken DM golem
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« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2011, 04:38:37 PM »


hmm ... I'm thinking the Flask Rogue fanboys

could use some magic items as Grenades.
Just exploding all over the place.
Like Runes. Or shrunken item.
Pulled from the standard Havers, etc ...
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