[3.P] My personal, simple Fighter fix

[ImperatorK]

http://www.imperatorkrpg.aaf.pl/viewtopic.php?p=2#2
It's just a simple Fighter//Swashbuckler//CW Samurai//Knight gestalt plus conversion to PF. My objective was to make it at least tier 4, which is fine with me, but I won't complain if it somehow reaches tier 3 (but I doubt that). Of course in my games normal Fighters, Swashbucklers, Samurais and Knights will now be something like NPC classes. The "fixed Fighter" is for PCs and bosses only.
Note that this is supposed to be played in combination with this houserules.

Please comment. Suggestions on how make it tier 3 without too much tinkering are also welcome.

Next I'm doing a Monk//Ninja//? with VoPs benefits (but without the crunch and fluff restrictions) as a class feature.

[bkdubs123]

It suffers from severe multiple attribute-dependency. It needs, at the very least, either a high Strength or Dexterity, needs a high Constitution to survive, regardless of weapon finesse or ranged attacks it probably wants some Dexterity for AC, and needs a high Intelligence and Charisma in order to utilize its class features in any way.

You really can't just gestalt four really bad classes, change nothing, and expect it to work well.

If you take out all the stuff that needs Int or Cha you're not left with much, so you'll probably want to tweak some stuff. A lot of the Swashbuckler stuff is useful, so no real changes are needed there. If you really want to keep smite you could make it add Con to your attack roll and class level to damage, that would still be feel Ki based. Then keep the intimidate stuff but allow the Fighter to use his Strength modifier for intimidation. Knight's Challenge stuff... I'm not sure what to do with it. It makes sense for it to be Cha-based, but the Fighter can't be needing Cha... but it would all be quite useful. Hmm.

[ImperatorK]

I don't mind MAD. In contrast to the Monk who needs all his abilities (and therefore the attributes for them to work) to survive and be competent, this Fighter doesn't need them all. Or does he?

[bkdubs123]

I don't mind MAD. In contrast to the Monk who needs all his abilities (and therefore the attributes for them to work) to survive and be competent, this Fighter doesn't need them all. Or does he?

He needs them all except for Wisdom, and dumping that results in a penalty to Will saves, so, that's not actually good either. Aside from Dodge, Acrobatic Charge, Lucky, and the Critical abilities, to get any benefit from the other class features you've added your Fighter will need a bonus from Intelligence and a bonus from Charisma. However, even using a 36pt buy he'll have poor scores if he tries to do that. At 10th level he'd have (with gear) Str 20 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 14. So he's getting +2 to damage from Insightful Strike, +2 to hit and damage from Kiai Smite, his Intimidate checks won't work, and his Knight's Challenge abilities aren't sticking because the Will save isn't high enough (DC 17).

[ImperatorK]

Does my Fighter need all of his class features to be decent as a tier 4?
You're thinking of him as of a Monk. He's not a Monk.

He needs them all except for Wisdom, and dumping that results in a penalty to Will saves, so, that's not actually good either.

He's got Bravery and good Will save. And there are always Force of Personality feat.

[bkdubs123]

Does my Fighter need all of his class features to be decent as a tier 4?
You're thinking of him as of a Monk. He's not a Monk.

But why give him class features that aren't going to be used?

EDIT: Also, a Pathfinder Fighter is already Tier 4 because it has access to more effective combat feats (for the most part anyway) and lots of useful archetypes.

[ImperatorK]

Does my Fighter need all of his class features to be decent as a tier 4?
You're thinking of him as of a Monk. He's not a Monk.

But why give him class features that aren't going to be used?

No. They don't have to be used. That's the difference between this Fighter and a Monk. A Monk needs most of the attributes. This Fighter can pick those that he wants and be good. Excluding Wisdom, no matter what attribute he picks, he will have class features that will give him benefits.

EDIT: Also, a Pathfinder Fighter is already Tier 4 because it has access to more effective combat feats (for the most part anyway) and lots of useful archetypes.

That's not what I was reading on other boards when I searched for PF tier systems, but I'm willing to believe that.
In that case this is either tier 3 or a strong tier 4. Either way, I just think that Swashbuckler, Samurai and Knight are redundant as base classes. They all should be variants or ACFs for the Fighter. That's why I gestalted them into one class.

[bkdubs123]

Does my Fighter need all of his class features to be decent as a tier 4?
You're thinking of him as of a Monk. He's not a Monk.

But why give him class features that aren't going to be used?

No. They don't have to be used. That's the difference between this Fighter and a Monk. A Monk needs most of the attributes. This Fighter can pick those that he wants and be good and excluding Wisdom, no matter what attribute he picks, he will have class features that will give him benefits.

That sort of design can work, but not the way you're using it. For instance, if he chooses Intelligence all he gets for it is a small bump to his damage and a bunch of useless class features. If he chooses Charisma he gets a lot more relevant features. Don't look for the quick and easy way out.

EDIT: Also, a Pathfinder Fighter is already Tier 4 because it has access to more effective combat feats (for the most part anyway) and lots of useful archetypes.

That's not what I was reading on other boards when I searched for PF tier systems, but I'm willing to believe that.
[/quote]

Ah, well, I'm not familiar with the PF Tiers, so that may be true. Good point.

[ImperatorK]

That sort of design can work, but not the way you're using it. For instance, if he chooses Intelligence all he gets for it is a small bump to his damage and a bunch of useless class features. If he chooses Charisma he gets a lot more relevant features. Don't look for the quick and easy way out.

But he at least gets some benefits for investing in different attributes. And if he dumps them, it won't penalize him, because he doesn't really need them to be competent (I hope).

Ah, well, I'm not familiar with the PF Tiers, so that may be true. Good point.

Those where either old or on GitP. So yeah... I'd rather take your opinion as the more accurate one.

[Nytemare3701]

I'd still allow some overlap between the ability scores. Intimidate can use Strength OR Charisma for example.

[ImperatorK]

Isn't there a feat that adds Str to Intimidate?

[SneeR]

Isn't there a feat that adds Str to Intimidate?

You should never need to get a feat to grant coherence between your class abilities. Think about how everyone complains that Natural Spell should be a part of druids. It's not a fighter "fix" if you need to abandon some class features to have a well-conceived, well-built character

[ImperatorK]

You should never need to get a feat to grant coherence between your class abilities.

What coherence? It's more coherent that Intimidate is keyed of Cha.

It's not a fighter "fix" if you need to abandon some class features to have a well-conceived, well-built character

Need or can? I don't need Knight's Challenge (and Cha) if I'm not building a "tank/battlefield controller". I don't need Insightful Strike (and Int) if I'm not building a finesse fighter. Those class features enhance and help but aren't required. Just like a Wizard who specializes in one school bust still has access to other schools. Just because he doesn't use all of them doesn't make him weaker.

[lans]

Next I'm doing a Monk//Ninja//? with VoPs benefits (but without the crunch and fluff restrictions) as a class feature.

You might want to just add 10 levels of a ninja and monk prestige class if you don't find another class that fits.

Like Monk//Ninja//Ninja Spy/Henshin Mystic or something


I suppose you could do Monk//Ninja//rokagan ninja, but that seems a bit disgruntled.