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Author Topic: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?  (Read 4958 times)
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Endarire
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« on: October 13, 2011, 07:22:28 AM »

Chart!

People complain often about a caster's capacity for spell slinging.  A primary caster's number of available spells of his highest level are almost always his best ability.

Eventually, it becomes difficult for a caster to cast all his spells in an adventuring period before needing to rest.

What are y'alls' feelings on this?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 08:52:36 AM by Endarire » Logged

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Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
Sinfire Titan
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2011, 09:37:33 AM »

I feel the Tier 2s and up do not need bonus spells at the mid-to-high levels. The lower tier ones can have them, but I don't think the higher tier classes need them past 7th level.
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Prime32
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2011, 11:53:34 AM »

Really, I think all full casters should use different ability scores to determine save DCs and bonus spells. It increases MAD and variation.
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The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
oslecamo
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2011, 01:16:29 PM »

I also have been considering that for some time, just like Str is for melee/combat maneuvers, dex for ranged/AC, Con is for HP.

How about Int 10+Spell level to be able to learn/cast it, Wisdom for spell DCs and Cha for extra spells?
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SneeR
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2011, 05:29:25 PM »

I also have been considering that for some time, just like Str is for melee/combat maneuvers, dex for ranged/AC, Con is for HP.

How about Int 10+Spell level to be able to learn/cast it, Wisdom for spell DCs and Cha for extra spells?

Okay, well that's a little dissociated. The MAD of melee characters makes sense. So, why does a wizard, whose skills in magic are based entirely on memorization, study, and recitation, require WIS or CHA to cast? Unfortunately, basing everything on INT makes the most sense, unless you alter the fluff of the class.
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SneeR
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
oslecamo
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2011, 05:35:35 PM »

Okay, well that's a little dissociated. The MAD of melee characters makes sense. So, why does a wizard, whose skills in magic are based entirely on memorization, study, and recitation, require WIS or CHA to cast? Unfortunately, basing everything on INT makes the most sense, unless you alter the fluff of the class.

Memorization is a matter of self-discipline. It demands wisdom to make sure you remember every detail every time. An alooft wizard with low wisdom forgets important details when stressed. Recitation demands good tongue work. A dorky wizard with no charisma can't make the proper sylabes, specially in the heat of battle, while a charismatic one can put just the right entoation with naturality.
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SneeR
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2011, 05:58:22 PM »

Okay, well that's a little dissociated. The MAD of melee characters makes sense. So, why does a wizard, whose skills in magic are based entirely on memorization, study, and recitation, require WIS or CHA to cast? Unfortunately, basing everything on INT makes the most sense, unless you alter the fluff of the class.
Memorization is a matter of self-discipline. It demands wisdom to make sure you remember every detail every time. An alooft wizard with low wisdom forgets important details when stressed. Recitation demands good tongue work. A dorky wizard with no charisma can't make the proper sylabes, specially in the heat of battle, while a charismatic one can put just the right entoation with naturality.

Okay, good start. But why do you get more spells per day from pronouncing syllables well? Why are your spells stronger because you remain stoic in the face of danger?

Perhaps you should get more spells per day based on WIS, since you know exactly what you need to do to memorize more spells, and the DC is based on CHA because you can put more emphasis behind the syllables and motions the spells require!
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The answer to everything:
SneeR
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
Bozwevial
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2011, 06:59:10 PM »

I'm pretty much against that one, because a) it ties the fluff down way, way too much and b) any caster, no matter what type, has a "you must be this smart to ride" sign slapped in front of them. They all need an Intelligence of 15 if they ever want 9th level spells.

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of the ability score requirement for spells (or anything, really). We don't make martial adepts meet arbitrary Strength requirements to use Strike of Perfect Clarity, so why should we enforce those requirements for casters? If you want to make your half-orc wizard, you can do that. He won't be as great at it as a cerebrum elf, but he'll get level-appropriate stuff and be able to use it.

If you want to increase MAD, though, expand it to, I don't know, a two-score system and throw out the ability score requirements. Your primary casting stat determines spells per day while your secondary casting stat determines save DCs.
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veekie
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2011, 08:56:34 PM »

Well, splitting up the casting stat has plenty of perks. You see in a lot of media that spellcasters have three main metrics, knowledge, skill and power.
Knowledge is what spells you know - Intelligence limits spell access(with some spells being more difficult to learn) and spells known.
Skill is how effectively you deliver the spell - This one is class dependent(but closer to a Wis thing), and sets the DC.
Power is how much is in your bank - Most commonly Charisma, this is your raw magical brawn. How much power you can afford before you run low, or for more powerful spells, whether you can do them at all.

In such a setup, you might for example, have the Int to access high level spells, and the Wis for the DC, but as your Cha is too low, you need to spend actions combining lower level slots(2 slots of a level = 1 slot of the next level) until you have the bang for the spell, etc.

Heck, the mono-stat casting is more dissociated than multi-stat.
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I can barely read mine.

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"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

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Bozwevial
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Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.


« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2011, 09:15:19 PM »

If you want to limit spell access, that's fine, but tie it to your primary casting stat. It shouldn't be Intelligence no matter what sort of caster you are, because that sets limitations on what you can reasonably do from both a fluff and crunch perspective. Now instead of half-orcs not making good wizards and sorcerers, they don't make good casters of any kind, which is bad for both the player and the DM because playing an avatar of Gruumsh becomes less viable in the same way that including one in the orc warlord's encampment becomes less viable.

The knowledge/skill/power thing can be rolled into two stats pretty easily, depending on the flavor of the class. Wizards, under such a system, might have Intelligence as a primary stat and Wisdom as a secondary stat--their knowledge of the laws of magic lets them memorize more spells by reducing the effort needed to prepare them through rote mastery, while a combination of keen observation of their surroundings and their inherent force of will makes their spells harder to resist. Clerics have Wisdom as their primary and Charisma as their secondary--the deeper their connection to their deity, the more magic they're entrusted with/able to channel, and the more powerful their spirit is, the more potent the spell is. And so on. Maybe you have a blood magus who uses Charisma as his primary and Constitution as his secondary.
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veekie
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2011, 10:06:30 PM »

Well, an alternative is to pick two of the triad as stats and then waive the third, so wizards for example, might get Knowledge and Skill, with Power built straight into level advancement, while Clerics waive Knowledge and Sorcerors waive Skill, etc.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
Bozwevial
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 4497


Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.


« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2011, 10:45:29 PM »

I like it. Sorcerers have the raw power necessary to blow away the opposition regardless, clerics don't need to learn about magic to channel a deity's power, wizards use their mastery of the system to cheat and channel more power than they should be able to...
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SneeR
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 12:24:37 AM »

I like it. Sorcerers have the raw power necessary to blow away the opposition regardless, clerics don't need to learn about magic to channel a deity's power, wizards use their mastery of the system to cheat and channel more power than they should be able to...

Me, too! Now to translate that into mechanics...
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The answer to everything:
SneeR
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
Prime32
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2011, 06:55:33 AM »

You have an effective X score based on your level, if higher than your existing score? (eg. sorcerer spell DC = 10 + half sorc level + spell level)
You use one of the other two scores instead? (eg. sorcerer uses Cha for both bonus spells and DC)

If you want to limit spell access, that's fine, but tie it to your primary casting stat. It shouldn't be Intelligence no matter what sort of caster you are, because that sets limitations on what you can reasonably do from both a fluff and crunch perspective. Now instead of half-orcs not making good wizards and sorcerers, they don't make good casters of any kind, which is bad for both the player and the DM because playing an avatar of Gruumsh becomes less viable in the same way that including one in the orc warlord's encampment becomes less viable.
This is the "ugly people have low Cha" problem. You could solve some of those problems by giving RSLs which let them substitute Str/Con for Int.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 06:58:52 AM by Prime32 » Logged

My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
oslecamo
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2011, 07:52:31 AM »

If you want to limit spell access, that's fine, but tie it to your primary casting stat. It shouldn't be Intelligence no matter what sort of caster you are, because that sets limitations on what you can reasonably do from both a fluff and crunch perspective. Now instead of half-orcs not making good wizards and sorcerers, they don't make good casters of any kind, which is bad for both the player and the DM because playing an avatar of Gruumsh becomes less viable in the same way that including one in the orc warlord's encampment becomes less viable.
This is the "ugly people have low Cha" problem. You could solve some of those problems by giving RSLs which let them substitute Str/Con for Int.

But now fluff-wise, aren't orcs simply suposed to be bad spellcasters, and more on the choppy side(biggest Str bonus on the La 0 races)? I fully expect for an "avatar of Gruumsh" being the strongest martial dude on the encapment. The orc god demands his followers to prove their worth in raw combat, not hiding behind petty magics! Asking for the avatar of Gruumsh to be a talented spellcaster would be like asking for the Avatar of Pelor to be a necropolitan necromancer if you ask me.

In particular because if an orc wizard uses Str for casting, then suddenly every wizard wants to be an orc, because I don't recall any la 0 race that grants +4 to Int (and with water orc you're geting +2 to Con as a bonus).
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 07:54:06 AM by oslecamo » Logged

Kajhera
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2011, 09:13:36 AM »

If you want to limit spell access, that's fine, but tie it to your primary casting stat. It shouldn't be Intelligence no matter what sort of caster you are, because that sets limitations on what you can reasonably do from both a fluff and crunch perspective. Now instead of half-orcs not making good wizards and sorcerers, they don't make good casters of any kind, which is bad for both the player and the DM because playing an avatar of Gruumsh becomes less viable in the same way that including one in the orc warlord's encampment becomes less viable.
This is the "ugly people have low Cha" problem. You could solve some of those problems by giving RSLs which let them substitute Str/Con for Int.

But now fluff-wise, aren't orcs simply suposed to be bad spellcasters, and more on the choppy side(biggest Str bonus on the La 0 races)? I fully expect for an "avatar of Gruumsh" being the strongest martial dude on the encapment. The orc god demands his followers to prove their worth in raw combat, not hiding behind petty magics! Asking for the avatar of Gruumsh to be a talented spellcaster would be like asking for the Avatar of Pelor to be a necropolitan necromancer if you ask me.

In particular because if an orc wizard uses Str for casting, then suddenly every wizard wants to be an orc, because I don't recall any la 0 race that grants +4 to Int (and with water orc you're geting +2 to Con as a bonus).

Orcs do all sorts of things like putting out their eyes and ritually scarring themselves to gain martial prowess through ritualistic means. Notsure where I got it from but in campaigns where I'm an orc magic is generally considered the dominion of non-warriors though; which is much more likely to include females guarding the home than warriors raiding. Druid is probably one of the more flavorful options for a follower of Luthic.
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oslecamo
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2011, 09:27:09 AM »

Orcs do all sorts of things like putting out their eyes and ritually scarring themselves to gain martial prowess through ritualistic means. Notsure where I got it from but in campaigns where I'm an orc magic is generally considered the dominion of non-warriors though;

You mean the Eye of Gruumsh prc, that doesn't need any spellcasting to enter, neither grants it? Ritual scarring=/=magic.
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Kajhera
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2011, 09:34:32 AM »

Orcs do all sorts of things like putting out their eyes and ritually scarring themselves to gain martial prowess through ritualistic means. Notsure where I got it from but in campaigns where I'm an orc magic is generally considered the dominion of non-warriors though;

You mean the Eye of Gruumsh prc, that doesn't need any spellcasting to enter, neither grants it? Ritual scarring=/=magic.
Toughening your skin isn't. Putting out your eye in exchange for blindsight is.

Yes, I know it's marked (Ex). I'm just in denial.  Sad
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 09:48:59 AM by Kajhera » Logged
oslecamo
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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2011, 09:50:17 AM »

Toughening your skin isn't. Putting out your eye in exchange for blindsight is.

Yes, I know it's marked (Ex).

So you're basically saying martials can't have nice things? That the Eye of Gruumsh doesn't gain blindsight because he has  learned to use his other senses better now that he's lost an eye, but because he just learned how to cast non-magic spells that work in AMF?

Nevermind, saw your edit.
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Kajhera
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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2011, 09:58:57 AM »

Toughening your skin isn't. Putting out your eye in exchange for blindsight is.

Yes, I know it's marked (Ex).

So you're basically saying martials can't have nice things? That the Eye of Gruumsh doesn't gain blindsight because he has  learned to use his other senses better now that he's lost an eye, but because he just learned how to cast non-magic spells that work in AMF?

Nevermind, saw your edit.

Well, he does gain power through worship. Just, in this case, it's extraordinary, not supernatural, power...
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