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Author Topic: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?  (Read 5225 times)
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oslecamo
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« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2011, 02:02:39 PM »

What about having more relatively SAD classes and making multiclassing more powerful? That way the person wanting to play a limited character could play a limited one, while the person who wants to have general skills could get decently level-appropriate power from two sources.

Something like my pseudo-spellcaster?

A character who multiclasses into a caster class can count his other levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells/powers and getting new spell slots/power points. However, she does not retroactively gain spell slots or new spells for caster levels she did not take, nor does she add her other levels level to her character level for the purpose of other class features, such as turn undead and familiars.


Would be quite interesting if a fighter 6 can suddenly take a wizard level and, if he's got at least 14 Int, pick polymorph.

BUT then you have the problem that with the hundreds of classes out there, a SAD character can just go around cherry-picking other classes that share their main stat. You really want the wizard to be able to easily pick the factotum's high level Int-based abilities?

Well, and grapple checks, bull rush, break checks, overrun, and offensive trips. Though I am happy for ways to use dexterity or intelligence on these for fighting styles, having it take some class or feat investment is sensible.

But I do feel classes should be able to remedy it and not just feats.
Then it's not by default. If you want to use another stat than Str for that, then by all means pick the class that focuses on using those options whitout relying on Str.

But when that class also gets another bazillion abilities that are also based on a single stat, then things get bad, because why would you then ever want to invest on your other ability scores?

And no, I don't consider that a "feat tax" or whatever because if you could use Dex to melee by default, every melee out there would at most get 13 Str for Power attack and then dump everything into Dex, that also boosts AC, reflex saves and Iniative, while Str only boosts... Carrying capacity.

And damage.

Already taken in acount. You can get Dex to damage with feats trough shadow blade.
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Kajhera
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« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2011, 02:40:25 PM »

Yeah, something like that pseudospellcaster.

There are maybe two abilities on the Factotum list that are super-problematic. And they're class abilities. If your pseudofactotum was boosting things like inspiration points, access to level of spell-like abilities, and effective factotum level for abilities, it would make a lot more sense and not cause that problem.

There is not as much spellcasting by default in 3.5. Your average person can't just use Knowledge to get binding rituals, Wisdom to dictate how many spirits they can hold in their mind and Charisma to determine how influenced they are by them and the saving throws for granted powers, or whatever. Closest they can get is magic items / UMD. So pretty much every magic class is both the theoretical default magic + the class influence.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 02:45:09 PM by Kajhera » Logged
oslecamo
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« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2011, 02:45:17 PM »

There is no magic by default in 3.5. Your average person can't just use Knowledge to get binding rituals, Wisdom to dictate how many spirits they can hold in their mind and Charisma to determine how influenced they are by them and the saving throws for granted powers, or whatever. Closest they can get is magic items / UMD. So pretty much every magic class is both the theoretical default magic + the class influence.

Pretty much every monster SLA out there is Cha-based, including feats like Hidden Talent and other ones that grant some SLA uses, and the gnome's natural SLAs. Prcs that grant SLAs to noncasters also have them be Cha-based most if not all the time.

And  UMD itself is also Cha based.

So yes, there's some strong "magic defaults" out there.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 02:47:34 PM by oslecamo » Logged

Kajhera
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« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2011, 02:47:20 PM »

There is no magic by default in 3.5. Your average person can't just use Knowledge to get binding rituals, Wisdom to dictate how many spirits they can hold in their mind and Charisma to determine how influenced they are by them and the saving throws for granted powers, or whatever. Closest they can get is magic items / UMD. So pretty much every magic class is both the theoretical default magic + the class influence.

Pretty much every monster SLA out there is Cha-based, including feats like Hidden Talent and other ones that grant some SLA uses, and the gnome's natural SLAs.

And  UMD itself is also Cha based.

So yes, there's some strong "magic defaults" out there.

Yeah, I've been rethinking that statement. Charisma definitely seems to be the magic default.

For Difficulty Class, at least. Not bonus spells generally.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 02:49:30 PM by Kajhera » Logged
oslecamo
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« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2011, 02:50:09 PM »

Well, it would be quite interesting if all spellcasters used Cha as their main stat (who's a dump stat now?). Int still gives skill points and Wis still boosts will saves, and they could be used as secondary stats for determining extra spells per day for their respective classes, while Cha controls DCs and unlocking of new spell levels.
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Kajhera
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« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2011, 03:08:35 PM »

Well, it would be quite interesting if all spellcasters used Cha as their main stat (who's a dump stat now?). Int still gives skill points and Wis still boosts will saves, and they could be used as secondary stats for determining extra spells per day for their respective classes, while Cha controls DCs and unlocking of new spell levels.

Maybe just the save DC. My antisocial wizards would be able to focus on utility and buffs, but in any direct contest of wills they would be lackluster; and find it difficult to charm any but the weakest minds. They'd be functionally different from and weaker than charismatic wizards, but still functional.
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Bozwevial
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« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2011, 03:15:07 PM »

I'm going to voice my dislike of tying all spellcasting to a specific stat priority again, because that locks out certain archetypes. If every single spellcaster has to pump Charisma to learn new spell levels, races with poor Charisma go from being bad sorcerers to being universally bad spellcasters.

I really don't see why you need to give spells an ability score prerequisite at all.
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oslecamo
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« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2011, 03:22:02 PM »

That's why I said add feats like "Smart Spell" and "Wise spell" for dorky wizards and clerics,just like there's Weapon Finesse for melee.

I really don't see why you need to give spells an ability score prerequisite at all.

Because the main problem with magic it's precisely because it allows you a massive variety of effects with little on the way of prerequisites? And you want to make it even stronger by removing those already there (RAW wizards need an Int of 10+spell level to cast it)? I guess it's the natural extension of "noncasters can't have nice things", the "casters need even moar nice things!".
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Kajhera
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« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2011, 03:23:13 PM »

I'm going to voice my dislike of tying all spellcasting to a specific stat priority again, because that locks out certain archetypes. If every single spellcaster has to pump Charisma to learn new spell levels, races with poor Charisma go from being bad sorcerers to being universally bad spellcasters.

I really don't see why you need to give spells an ability score prerequisite at all.

So if a arcanist (wizard/sorcerer) got normal progression regardless of their scores, bonus spells per day and spells known per level from Intelligence, set their difficulty class with Charisma, could switch to one or the other with a feat, and ... hmm this sounds complicated.
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Bozwevial
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« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2011, 03:36:04 PM »

That's why I said add feats like "Smart Spell" and "Wise spell" for dorky wizards and clerics,just like there's Weapon Finesse for melee.
Why should you have to pay a feat tax for that not to be the default? That's right up there with Natural Spell in terms of bad design. If it's part of the core concept (for wizards, being able to use magic because you have studied it all your life), you shouldn't have to pay for it. It should be part and parcel of the class, just like swashbucklers get Weapon Finesse for free, because having a class that favors finesse over brute force and then telling it that it can't actually do that without spending one of its limited feat slots is stupid.

Quote
Because the main problem with magic it's precisely because it allows you a massive variety of effects with little on the way of prerequisites? And you want to make it even stronger by removing those already there? I guess it's the natural extension of "noncasters can't have nice things", the "casters need even moar nice things!".
Will you can it? I am not saying either of those things. That's bullshit and you know it. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to apply the standard in some cases and not in others, because if we fix things so that casters and noncasters are equal there's no need for it. It's not consistent. It's just sloppy. If you can go into fighter with an 8 in Strength and still get all your class abilities, you should damned well be able to go into wizard with an 8 in Intelligence and be able to cast all your spells. You won't get many, because it's frankly a stupid thing to do, but the option should be there.

I want casters and noncasters to be equally viable. I'm pretty sure everyone in this topic wants that. I do not, however, want an arbitrary minimum score to be a wizard or cleric or sorcerer, because that's what it boils down to. If you have to apply that standard, it says something about the design.
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ImperatorK
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« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2011, 03:50:58 PM »

But here's the thing:
Casters get ASTRONOMICAL COSMIC POWER with the requirement that they have to have high score in an attribute that they WILL max out regardless, for bonus spells and DCs.
Noncasters have only their class features and... they're not full spellcasting spells.
So yeah...
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 03:52:43 PM by ImperatorK » Logged

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Bozwevial
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« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2011, 04:02:37 PM »

But here's the thing:
Casters get ASTRONOMICAL COSMIC POWER with the requirement that they have to have high score in an attribute that they WILL max out regardless, for bonus spells and DCs.
Noncasters have only their class features and... they're not full spellcasting spells.
So yeah...
Of course this imbalance exists. That's why this topic exists at all. I'm assuming that the rebalancing of casters is accompanied by other changes that help balance them with noncasters, otherwise what's the point?

Here's the thing: That mechanic is completely arbitrary. Assume for a minute that we live in an ideal world where fighters and wizards are equally useful and viable. If I turned around and told fighters that they couldn't use their high level abilities without a minimum Strength, you'd all cry foul.  Why should this rule apply to casters, then? It doesn't have a mechanical backing, because now spells aren't inherently better, so there's no need to lock them away behind a "you must be this smart to ride" sign. It exists solely as a nod to the flavor. It also serves to piss off players, because if they don't meet those arbitrary standards they do not get level appropriate abilities. That's absolutely terrible design.

So get rid of it. In the hypothetical balanced system, at best it serves no purpose and at worst it hinders balance. In 3.5 as it stands, it does absolutely nothing to ensure balance.

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oslecamo
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« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2011, 04:13:22 PM »

Quote
Because the main problem with magic it's precisely because it allows you a massive variety of effects with little on the way of prerequisites? And you want to make it even stronger by removing those already there? I guess it's the natural extension of "noncasters can't have nice things", the "casters need even moar nice things!".
Will you can it? I am not saying either of those things. That's bullshit and you know it. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to apply the standard in some cases and not in others, because if we fix things so that casters and noncasters are equal there's no need for it. It's not consistent. It's just sloppy.
This isn't 4th edition where all classes are the same with diferent paint jobs! This! Is! 3rd edition, and yes each class works in a diferent way!

If you can go into fighter with an 8 in Strength and still get all your class abilities, you should damned well be able to go into wizard with an 8 in Intelligence and be able to cast all your spells. You won't get many, because it's frankly a stupid thing to do, but the option should be there.
Several of the key fighter feats have certain ability scores as prerequisites.

Of course this imbalance exists. That's why this topic exists at all. I'm assuming that the rebalancing of casters is accompanied by other changes that help balance them with noncasters, otherwise what's the point?
Excellent question. If you're just going to shoot down any sugestion that makes casters  weaker in any way, then casters will still remain on top.

Here's the thing: That mechanic is completely arbitrary. Assume for a minute that we live in an ideal world where fighters and wizards are equally useful and viable. If I turned around and told fighters that they couldn't use their high level abilities without a minimum Strength, you'd all cry foul.  

Again, power attack already needs Str 13 to pick, and the two-weapon fighting feats have scaling Dex prerequisites.

You can in theory make a melee fighter whitout power attack, but... Good luck with that. You'll need it.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 04:21:42 PM by oslecamo » Logged

Bozwevial
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« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2011, 04:26:27 PM »

This isn't 4th edition where all classes are the same with diferent paint jobs! This! Is! 3rd edition, and yes each class works in a diferent way!
And it's broken. And I want to fix it, while in the process getting rid of a legacy mechanic that is outdated.

Quote
Several of the key fighter feats have certain ability scores as prerequisites. Swashbucklers later need Int on top of their Dex.
And making those feats have an ability score prerequisite is also stupid, and we should get rid of that too. Swashbucklers meanwhile get benefits out of Intelligence, but they don't need a minimum score to get their abilities.

Quote
Again, power attack already needs Str 13 to pick, and the two-weapon fighting feats have scaling Dex prerequisites.
And again, that's a stupid mechanic. Even WotC realized that and leaned away from it later. Tome of Battle doesn't force crusaders to have a specific ability score at X or greater to use Strike of Righteous Vitality. Get rid of the requirements for feats and spells alike.

Quote
Excellent question. If you're just going to shoot down any sugestion that makes casters a little worst, then casters will still remain on top.
I'm quoting you out of order here because I'm apparently not coming across clearly and I want this to stand out.

I don't care whether you make casters worse or make noncasters better or both to balance the game. In a system where they are balanced, this ability score prerequisite thing serves no purpose other than denying someone level-appropriate abilities, which is a bad thing. In this system, where they are definitely not balanced, it still serves no purpose because it doesn't narrow the gap at all. In both cases, it's a mechanic that only works in corner cases. So get rid of it. Yes, it's a buff to casters, but it pales in comparison to the problems that are already there, and presumably that's not the only thing you're doing to the casters. You're nerfing them at the same time, in which case it doesn't matter, or you're buffing everyone else up to that level, in which case...it doesn't matter.
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oslecamo
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« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2011, 04:47:53 PM »

This isn't 4th edition where all classes are the same with diferent paint jobs! This! Is! 3rd edition, and yes each class works in a diferent way!
And it's broken. And I want to fix it, while in the process getting rid of a legacy mechanic that is outdated.
Then why don't just pick another gaming system? Plenty out there, and saves you the work from remaking D&D from scratch.

Quote
Several of the key fighter feats have certain ability scores as prerequisites. Swashbucklers later need Int on top of their Dex.
And making those feats have an ability score prerequisite is also stupid, and we should get rid of that too. Swashbucklers meanwhile get benefits out of Intelligence, but they don't need a minimum score to get their abilities.
They need a minimum of 12. A bonus of +0 is as good as not having the ability at all.

Quote
Again, power attack already needs Str 13 to pick, and the two-weapon fighting feats have scaling Dex prerequisites.
And again, that's a stupid mechanic. Even WotC realized that and leaned away from it later. Tome of Battle doesn't force crusaders to have a specific ability score at X or greater to use Strike of Righteous Vitality. Get rid of the requirements for feats and spells alike.
Because maneuvers are weaker than spells. And again, a warblade whitout Int bonus is basically losing several of his class abilities, as a +0 bonus may as well not be there.

Quote
Excellent question. If you're just going to shoot down any sugestion that makes casters a little worst, then casters will still remain on top.
I'm quoting you out of order here because I'm apparently not coming across clearly and I want this to stand out.

I don't care whether you make casters worse or make noncasters better or both to balance the game. In a system where they are balanced, this ability score prerequisite thing serves no purpose other than denying someone level-appropriate abilities, which is a bad thing. In this system, where they are definitely not balanced, it still serves no purpose because it doesn't narrow the gap at all. In both cases, it's a mechanic that only works in corner cases. So get rid of it.
Watching out for corners is one of the finer points of good design. Much of D&D's problems are precisely because those "corners" weren't taken in acount and TO will use and abuse every unpolished corner they can find. So why take the risk that someone finds some loophole that allows them to cast the spell once you remove the ability prerequisites?

Yes, it's a buff to casters, but it pales in comparison to the problems that are already there, and presumably that's not the only thing you're doing to the casters. You're nerfing them at the same time, in which case it doesn't matter, or you're buffing everyone else up to that level, in which case...it doesn't matter.
See, now that is actual bad design. The idea of "Casters are already strong, so it's allright to make them stronger" has possibly been more damaging to 3rd edition than anything else. Just because something is broken, is no valid excuse at all to increase its power even more.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 04:49:37 PM by oslecamo » Logged

Bozwevial
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« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2011, 05:06:14 PM »

Then why don't just pick another gaming system? Plenty out there, and saves you the work from remaking D&D from scratch.
You tell me. You're in this thread, after all. Why are you discussing this instead of just playing another system?

Quote
Because maneuvers are weaker than spells. And again, a warblade whitout Int bonus is basically losing several of his class abilities, as a +0 bonus may as well not be there.
So the mechanic exists to balance casters and noncasters? Boy, it's sure doing a great job.

Quote
Watching out for corners is one of the finer points of good design. Much of D&D's problems are precisely because those "corners" weren't taken in acount and TO will use and abuse every unpolished corner they can find. So why take the risk that someone finds some loophole that allows them to cast the spell once you remove the ability prerequisites?
Uh, because that's what I want? I don't want someone to have to have a certain Strength to take Power Attack, and I don't want someone to have to have a certain Intelligence to cast Scorching Ray. The ability score prerequisite means that you're being denied abilities which are level-appropriate if you don't meet those standards, and it only works in those corner cases. If it's the fixed 3.5, you're being fucked out of the ability to perform adequately. If it's normal 3.5, it does...pretty much nothing.


Quote
See, now that is actual bad design. The idea of "Casters are already strong, so it's allright to make them stronger" has possibly been more damaging to 3rd edition than anything else. Just because something is broken, is no valid excuse at all to make it even more broken.
You keep missing the point here.

1) In the case of an overall rebalance, you can get away with this because the net result is a nerf to casters or a buff to noncasters or both. If I add two to a number and at the same time subtract five, the net result is a decrease in the value of the number.

2) If that metaphor were extended to this case, I would be adding two and subtracting approximately eleven thousand. It's seriously not a big deal to do this without touching noncasters because, as you pointed out, the mechanic only applies in corner cases. It doesn't work even then. It would be like me expanding the cleric's skill list to include Use Rope. Yes, it's a buff to a caster, but it's not going to make the class explode with power. No one who wouldn't play a cleric before will play a cleric now because oh fuck yes, Use Rope. And if giving nice things to casters makes you that uncomfortable, get rid of ability score prerequisites in general (because the mechanic is universally bad). That's honestly more of a buff to noncasters, and it bears repeating that balancing the two is what I've been advocating since the beginning.
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veekie
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« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2011, 06:49:28 PM »

You could just use the schematic laid out earlier.
Using the tri-stat dependency, then with specific waivers for classes, you can then have races be bad at certain TYPES of magic, but not all magic.

So like so:
Int - Spells Known
Wis - Spell DCs
Cha - Spells per day.

Wizard - Waive Cha, they get a static number of slots per level, plus bonus slots for specializing. Drop the open ended spell learning mechanic for an Int based one, with freebie knowns for your favored school. More favorable spells known formula than the sorc.
This makes them the preferred avenue for low charisma or high intelligence races, and with the right spell selection you can minimize the Wis needs. Toss in an Int based class feature to modify a prepared spell to something else known a number of times a day. Thematically favors the crochety wizard.

Sorceror - Waive Wis, they get a spell DC bonus based off their caster level. Their slots are directly dependent on their charisma, and Int determines spells known beyond the basic spell they know + the spells off their bloodlines. Throw in class features that lets you use more spell slots for more bang(slots to metamagic conversion etc) or special effects(bloodline based slot burning abilities) and you're good.
Most magically oriented races are naturally charismatic and you can make do with a minimal number of spells known. its also the go-to for magic users that are weak in their mentals, because your spell DCs tend to remain up to date. Maybe you can even have a physically oriented sorceror that dumps his slots into buff spells and sacs spare spells into physically augmenting bloodline abilities. Thematically favors the reckless sorceror.

Cleric - Waive Int, what with knowing all the spells their god would grant, based on widened domain selection(that is, domains contain more than that 1 spell per spell level). Wis would then go to spell DCs and Cha to spell slots. Maybe screw around with the spontaneous casting a bit(1 domain gets its spells spontaneous like the existing cure/inflict system) and use wis based domain specials.
Thematically you get the wise or charismatic priest who tends to be a bit poor with the logical side of things.
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SneeR
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« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2011, 02:04:44 AM »

You could just use the schematic laid out earlier.
Using the tri-stat dependency, then with specific waivers for classes, you can then have races be bad at certain TYPES of magic, but not all magic.

So like so:
Int - Spells Known
Wis - Spell DCs
Cha - Spells per day.

Still think that CHA should determine DC and WIS the spells per day. CHA has a history of granting the DC for all SLAs, and it is supposed to be FORCE of personality, so how much force you can put behind your spells determines their power...
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I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

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veekie
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« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2011, 11:23:04 AM »

That is also possible. In that case:

Wizards get spells known off Int, and spell slots off Wis. Waiving Cha, they have to contend with fixed spell DCs for their spell levels.
Sorcerors get spells known off Int, and DCs off Cha. Waiving Wis, they get a large number of spells per day from advancement alone, with added abilities to get some lower level spells as SLAs.
Clerics get slots off Wis and DCs off Cha. Waiving Int, they remain more or less unchanged.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
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