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Author Topic: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?  (Read 4960 times)
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altpersona
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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2011, 10:21:06 AM »

im fond of the idea (i have not put much thought into it yet) of doing away with the standard spell progression charts and just giving casters the existing progression based on ability scores.

mr 18 ab score caster who never raises their score will only get 1 - 4 th lvl spells, one each.

scores in the 80 - 90 range put 9 spells across the board. and a measly 28 gets your first 9th.
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ImperatorK
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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2011, 10:48:32 AM »

im fond of the idea (i have not put much thought into it yet) of doing away with the standard spell progression charts and just giving casters the existing progression based on ability scores.

mr 18 ab score caster who never raises their score will only get 1 - 4 th lvl spells, one each.

scores in the 80 - 90 range put 9 spells across the board. and a measly 28 gets your first 9th.
Wait. You mean: get rid of all the spell slots granted by class levels and give only those from high casting stat?
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"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
SneeR
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« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2011, 11:08:00 AM »

im fond of the idea (i have not put much thought into it yet) of doing away with the standard spell progression charts and just giving casters the existing progression based on ability scores.

mr 18 ab score caster who never raises their score will only get 1 - 4 th lvl spells, one each.

scores in the 80 - 90 range put 9 spells across the board. and a measly 28 gets your first 9th.
Wait. You mean: get rid of all the spell slots granted by class levels and give only those from high casting stat?
That's what he seems to mean.
But I don't think that that will fix the problem. When they actually manage to pop off a 9th level spell, it will be just as broken (not to mention having an insane DC) as any other 9th level spell, just more rare.
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SneeR
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
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« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2011, 12:03:14 PM »

Well, an alternative is to pick two of the triad as stats and then waive the third, so wizards for example, might get Knowledge and Skill, with Power built straight into level advancement, while Clerics waive Knowledge and Sorcerors waive Skill, etc.

That definitely has promise.

Something noone has suggested yet, probably for obvious but misguided reasons: Why not use CON to determine bonus spells? In other words, how well can you overchannel your body's capabilities?

Stick with your primary stat to learn/cast spells.

The real question is, what to use to determine DC? If you want to go Full-on MAD, use DEX to determine reflex DCs (how well do you aim?), CHA to determine willpower DCs (how forceful and convincing are your projections), and either CON or your primary casting stat for fortitude DCs (how much power are you channeling at once?)
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veekie
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« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2011, 12:13:28 PM »

Quote
Why not use CON to determine bonus spells? In other words, how well can you overchannel your body's capabilities?
Standard trope for wizards and a lot of priests are the frail sort, so unless the magic comes out of your hp...
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« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2011, 12:39:24 PM »

Quote
Why not use CON to determine bonus spells? In other words, how well can you overchannel your body's capabilities?
Standard trope for wizards and a lot of priests are the frail sort, so unless the magic comes out of your hp...

Which is fine, the frail wizards don't get to go charging around all day slinging bonus spells, because they get tired quickly. They can still lob a few really powerful game-changers, which is all the trope requires.
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SneeR
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« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2011, 12:50:16 PM »

Quote
Why not use CON to determine bonus spells? In other words, how well can you overchannel your body's capabilities?
Standard trope for wizards and a lot of priests are the frail sort, so unless the magic comes out of your hp...

Which is fine, the frail wizards don't get to go charging around all day slinging bonus spells, because they get tired quickly. They can still lob a few really powerful game-changers, which is all the trope requires.

If the mechanics do not support an archetype, that archetype will not be emulated. If casters get HP, Fortitude bonus, and bonus spells from CON, that suddenly becomes a necessary stat to max out to be a successful caster in D&D.
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The answer to everything:
SneeR
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
ImperatorK
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Posts: 500



« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2011, 01:01:23 PM »

Hell, for all casters Con is often the second highest stat regardless.
Logged

"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
SneeR
Bi-Curious George
****
Posts: 432


Sneering


« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2011, 01:34:48 PM »

Hell, for all casters Con is often the second highest stat regardless.

So why reward that? Almost no other class has any ability based on CON because it is something that every character already wants high.

Also, what about undead wizards? Do they not get extra spells per day?
Logged

The answer to everything:
SneeR
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
altpersona
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Posts: 2939


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« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2011, 02:12:30 PM »

im fond of the idea (i have not put much thought into it yet) of doing away with the standard spell progression charts and just giving casters the existing progression based on ability scores.

mr 18 ab score caster who never raises their score will only get 1 - 4 th lvl spells, one each.

scores in the 80 - 90 range put 9 spells across the board. and a measly 28 gets your first 9th.
Wait. You mean: get rid of all the spell slots granted by class levels and give only those from high casting stat?


yes, thats what i meant.

yes 9ths are still broken (along with all the other broken that abounds) but i think it slows down rocket tag significantly.
Logged

The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga sux.

ImperatorK
Bi-Curious George
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Posts: 500



« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2011, 09:27:47 PM »

Hell, for all casters Con is often the second highest stat regardless.

So why reward that? Almost no other class has any ability based on CON because it is something that every character already wants high.

Also, what about undead wizards? Do they not get extra spells per day?
I was agreeing with you.
Logged

"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
SneeR
Bi-Curious George
****
Posts: 432


Sneering


« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2011, 10:03:35 PM »

Hell, for all casters Con is often the second highest stat regardless.
So why reward that? Almost no other class has any ability based on CON because it is something that every character already wants high.

Also, what about undead wizards? Do they not get extra spells per day?
I was agreeing with you.
And I am agreeing with you.  Big Grin
Logged

The answer to everything:
SneeR
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
veekie
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Posts: 9034


WARNING: Homing Miko


« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2011, 10:23:13 PM »

Mind you, you could have the con dependency by requiring you to invest health when you prepare spells, but that just turns the wizard from "killed by a stiff breeze" to "killed by moving air".
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
Endarire
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« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2011, 06:59:11 AM »

Are we more miffed that casters (especially Wizards) are SAD or that non-casters are MAD that casters are SAD?

If all casters are MAD, Clerics get shafted the most, seemingly needing STR/DEX, CON, WIS, and whatever else.  Druids can still max WIS and probably have enough points left for whatever.

Also, at some point, boosting saves becomes easier than boosting DCs, making things with saves risky or useless.  Don't know when that is, but I want spells and powers with saves to, y'know, work sometime.
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veekie
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« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2011, 09:36:37 AM »

Overall, I'd say high MAD is superior to SAD game wise, but both are inferior to moderate MAD(2 'key' stats, 2 secondary, preferably no 'default dumped stat'). SAD means every character of the same general archetype would have the exact same stat array, rather than focusing into sub-archetypes, and generally pushing the numbers faster than the game would want to.
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
Kajhera
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« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2011, 11:43:26 AM »

I personally enjoy characters with widely varying ability scores, where I can dump at least 3 and still be effective. I consider it quite a benefit that I can play a very intelligent, weak, clumsy, socially awkward wizard who doesn't notice the world around her and is easily swayed by compulsion or intimidation, and still have an effective character. I identify with her a lot.

The fact I can't do the same with a monk makes me a bit sad (because I'm mad), because that's the class I actually identify with. I might get away with a factotum with a monk's belt made in Carmendine Monk style, though, which is cool, but then I'm more SAD again here! xD

So I feel like there should be effective options both SAD and MAD for varied archetypes; playing an unbalanced character ability-wise should affect you, but not to the point of incompetence. Playing a well-rounded character should have benefits as well.
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oslecamo
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« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2011, 12:26:26 PM »

So I feel like there should be effective options both SAD and MAD for varied archetypes; playing an unbalanced character ability-wise should affect you, but not to the point of incompetence. Playing a well-rounded character should have benefits as well.

Problem being that's kinda too much to ask from one system. No matter how you look at it, investing in one score is much easier than investing in multiple ones.

If anything, the weak dorky wizard should be a wizard that spent his feats on smart memorization, smart encantation, smart focus and whatnot to make everything tied to Int. The other wizards then get to spend their feats on other stuff at the cost of needing a secondary stat. Kinda how you need multiple feats to make a pure Dex-based melee.

And no, I don't consider that a "feat tax" or whatever because if you could use Dex to melee by default, every melee out there would at most get 13 Str for Power attack and then dump everything into Dex, that also boosts AC, reflex saves and Iniative, while Str only boosts... Carrying capacity.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 12:31:11 PM by oslecamo » Logged

Kajhera
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« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2011, 12:38:47 PM »

So I feel like there should be effective options both SAD and MAD for varied archetypes; playing an unbalanced character ability-wise should affect you, but not to the point of incompetence. Playing a well-rounded character should have benefits as well.

Problem being that's kinda too much to ask from one system. No matter how you look at it, investing in one score is much easier than investing in multiple ones.

If anything, the weak dorky wizard should be a wizard that spent his feats on smart memorization, smart encantation, smart focus and whatnot to make everything tied to Int. The other wizards then get to spend their feats on other stuff at the cost of needing a secondary stat. Kinda how you need multiple feats to make a pure Dex-based melee.

What about having more relatively SAD classes and making multiclassing more powerful? That way the person wanting to play a limited character could play a limited one, while the person who wants to have general skills could get decently level-appropriate power from two sources.
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Kajhera
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« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2011, 12:45:44 PM »

So I feel like there should be effective options both SAD and MAD for varied archetypes; playing an unbalanced character ability-wise should affect you, but not to the point of incompetence. Playing a well-rounded character should have benefits as well.

Problem being that's kinda too much to ask from one system. No matter how you look at it, investing in one score is much easier than investing in multiple ones.

If anything, the weak dorky wizard should be a wizard that spent his feats on smart memorization, smart encantation, smart focus and whatnot to make everything tied to Int. The other wizards then get to spend their feats on other stuff at the cost of needing a secondary stat. Kinda how you need multiple feats to make a pure Dex-based melee.

And no, I don't consider that a "feat tax" or whatever because if you could use Dex to melee by default, every melee out there would at most get 13 Str for Power attack and then dump everything into Dex, that also boosts AC, reflex saves and Iniative, while Str only boosts... Carrying capacity.

Well, and grapple checks, bull rush, break checks, overrun, and offensive trips. Though I am happy for ways to use dexterity or intelligence on these for fighting styles, having it take some class or feat investment is sensible.

But I do feel classes should be able to remedy it and not just feats.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 12:47:33 PM by Kajhera » Logged
Kaelik
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« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2011, 01:33:45 PM »

And no, I don't consider that a "feat tax" or whatever because if you could use Dex to melee by default, every melee out there would at most get 13 Str for Power attack and then dump everything into Dex, that also boosts AC, reflex saves and Iniative, while Str only boosts... Carrying capacity.

And damage.
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